All Topics / Help Needed! / older first time investor

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  • Profile photo of simonr101simonr101
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    @simonr101
    Join Date: 2013
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    Hi all,

    New to the forum, but been visiting for a while.

    Due to circumstances, don't have any assets other than super, but can use parents PPOR as collateral to reduce LMI. Partner and I are mid-40s, and recently started earning $170+ combined, secure employment, no dependants. We're both pretty motivated to secure a retirement plan, so think we can sock it away.

    I realise we need a solid long term plan and to build knowledge, and Steve's dip 4 sounds like a good way forward, although i suspect for now we really just need to get started to build some of our own equity.

    So am thinking we just need to find a good IP in the town we live in, that we may live in for a while ( may live overseas for a while with work so this period could be shorter), but with the expectation it would become a permanent IP. Have read that we should do interest only with 100% interest offset for future purchase and deductability.

    We would look for something with good CF+ potential ( to the extent possible in Canberra), and trying to keep loan down to the lowest amount possible for something we'd live in for possibly a year, so that repayments are low so we can put more in offset account.

    Am I missing anything? Appreciate your thoughts

    Simon

    Profile photo of TheFinanceShopTheFinanceShop
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    All sounds good simon but how are you looking to get CF + property? Are you going to manufacture the cf?

    Regards

    Shahin

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    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    Hi Simon

    I'm going to zero in on the thing that stands out to me.  You said "don't have any assets other than super".  Would it be rude to ask how much you have in super between the two of you? 

    I am assuming it is still sitting in a normal retail super fund.  Or have you started your own SMSF (Self Managed Super Fund) ?

    You can, inside a SMSF, use your superannuation monies on purchasing property (specifically, paying for deposit, stamp duty and buying costs – leaving the bank to fund 80% of the purchase costs, and having tenants pay off the property).  Have you considered having a good hard look at your super to build a fortress around your retirement?

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
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    Profile photo of simonr101simonr101
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    Shahin, i probably should have said more clearly that i know the goal is CF+, but don't think achievable in Canberra. 

    Jacqui, a bit of a long story, i had thought a year ago to do what you say, and I saw a bunch of advisors and and wasnt happy, so found a company highly regarded, so paid $700 and the guy said save more, buy ppor, and when save more, come see me.  So that knocked the wind out of me. We have around $100k in super.

    Thanks both for your questions

    Profile photo of Nigel KibelNigel Kibel
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    Hi Simon

    You have a good income and yes you can buy in your super fund however with with your combined income you should also buy outside the fund. In my view you need to look at properties with high capital growth. In Australia most cash flow properties are not that high and generally they ofgfer poor capital growth,

    If you buy a property for $400,000 and one growths by 5% and the other growths by 10% and all you are aiming to do is keep it for the next 20 years the difference works out to be $80,000 per year for each year you have owned the property. Now most people could live on that type of income, so it means that you need to be selective on the type of property that you should buy in the first place.

    Personally I also like to develop property because it means I can build in inner city areas and acquire quality property at as wholesale price.

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    Profile photo of simonr101simonr101
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    @simonr101
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    JT7 wrote:
    Hi Simon,

    I'd certainly recommend having a good chat to Jacqui.

    <br /
    Both Jacqui and I use the same broker, who is also an extremely accomplished and successful investor, and also a top bloke and a very good friend of ours. 

    Have a chat to Jacqui she will steer you in the right direction. 

    Jack 

    Thanks jack for post, good to hear it can be done. Also for recommendation.

    Nigel Kibel wrote:
    Hi Simon

    If you buy a property for $400,000 and one growths by 5% and the other growths by 10% and all you are aiming to do is keep it for the next 20 years the difference works out to be $80,000 per year for each year you have owned the property. N.

    Hi Nigel, thanks and good food for thought. It seems there are two different approaches, and a good strategy likely mixes them both up.

    You’ve got me thinking that maybe i should be to focus on cash flow early on to start to build equity, then property 2 or 3 maybe focus on CG.

    One thing I’m confused by though, I hasn’t done the calculation, but does an extra 5% compounded really equate to 80k over 20 years? And I know it’s for illustration, but 10% over 20 years is actually highly unlikely right?

    Thanks again for posting and helping me get on track

    Simon

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    Hi again Simon

    I'm a bit of a numbers nerd so I'll clarify if you like.  A $400k property growing at 10% per year over 20 years would give you a total of $1,629,681 more equity after 20 years than a property of the same pricetag growing at 5%.  $1,629,681 divided by 20 is equal to $81,404.  However you must understand that the forecasted growth is not precisely $81,404 each and ever year.  It's not linear.  For instance, In year 1, the "extra growth" would be only $20k.  In year 2 it would be a little more etc, due to the mathematical nature of compounding numbers.  Other thing to remember is a dollar today won't buy the same number of chocolate buddies at the Milk Bar as it will 20 years from now.  A dollar won't even get you a quarter of a chocolate buddie 20 years from now.

    Thing is, you need cashflow to buy your groceries.  Equity doesn't pay the bills.  Definitely not saying avoid capital growth.  You absolutely need it.  But you also need cashflow.  I prefer to go for properties that produce both, rather than one property that is just cashflow and a separate property that is just capital growth.  Keep in mind that as you get closer to retirement age (when you will not be working to earn income to pay off mortgages), the bank is unlikely to feel like giving you a loan against your equity so you can buy your groceries, because they will be thinking to themselves um, how is this person going to pay us back?  Oh that's right, they can't.  They are old and not working.  So no, we'll reject that application.

    The thing people forget is that whilst waiting for the capital growth (and presuming it happens in the manner you hope) you still have to support the mortgage whilst waiting.  In the case of a negatively geared property that is down by say $200 per week, you essentially have to find $200×52=$10,400 per year out of your own pocket just to hang on to the property.  If you cannot find such volumes of spare cash, then it is not even a strategy you could consider, because you would not be able to hang on.  Make sense?  Also, if you did have a spare $10,400 per year, you might prefer to be putting that towards acquiring additional properties rather than supporting just the one property.

    Another thing to be wary of are putting all your eggs in one basket.  Imagine if you had one expensive property and it was vacant for ages.  You would have zero rental income.  Not much good to you when you are retired and counting on the rental income to buy your groceries.  And another thing is land tax.  If you have lots of your chips on the board in one state, you hit that land-tax-free-threshold really fast.  Whereas if you spread your chips around the board a bit more, this is another holding cost you are avoiding or minimizing.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of simonr101simonr101
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    JacM wrote:
    Hi again Simon

    Thing is, you need cashflow to buy your groceries.  Equity doesn't pay the bills.  Definitely not saying avoid capital growth.  You absolutely need it.  But you also need cashflow.  I prefer to go for properties that produce both, rather than one property that is just cashflow and a separate property that is just capital growth. 

    The thing people forget is that whilst waiting for the capital growth (and presuming it happens in the manner you hope) you still have to support the mortgage whilst waiting.  In the case of a negatively geared property that is down by say $200 per week, you essentially have to find $200×52=$10,400 per year out of your own pocket just to hang on to the property.  If you cannot find such volumes of spare cash, then it is not even a strategy you could consider, because you would not be able to hang on.  Make sense?  Also, if you did have a spare $10,400 per year, you might prefer to be putting that towards acquiring additional properties rather than supporting just the one property.

    Another thing to be wary of are putting all your eggs in one basket.  Imagine if you had one expensive property and it was vacant for ages.  You would have zero rental income.  Not much good to you when you are retired and counting on the rental income to buy your groceries.  And another thing is land tax.  If you have lots of your chips on the board in one state, you hit that land-tax-free-threshold really fast. 

    Jacqui, thanks for coming back. On the compound interest, that's what I thought, and understand an even 10 is really an average. It make sense re these income, and also trying to balance both if possible. Lots of good points :-)

    On the $10.4k example, yes very clear. This is clearly the point behind offset accounts, you can redraw to buy the next one?

    Simon

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    @jacm
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    Hi Simon

    Yes, the point of an offset is to save mortgage interest while the money is in there, but be able to withdraw the money whenever you want to either fund the next IP, or fund an acquisition of a property for you to live in, or whatever.  It's not a redraw when you take money out of an offset.  Just a regular withdrawl.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of Nigel KibelNigel Kibel
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    The only point I would make here is yes Jacqui is correct the amount will not grow at the same rate however I did say if you kept these properties for 20 years this would be the result.

    I would also say that yes creating equity as Jacqui does also works and works well. If we are talking about buying a property and holding it then it is difficult to get cash flow properties from these type of purchases and even when you do it can be marginal. So my point is that for someone on a joint income in excess of $170,000 in there 40s I would still suggest that aiming at high growth properties may be a better way to go.

    Nigel Kibel | Property Know How
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