All Topics / Help Needed! / Last minute jitters.
Hi all.
Firstly, thanks to all of the contributors on this site. Although this is my first post, I have already gained some valuable knowledge by "lurking" here for a month or so. This community is a great thing and the selflessness of people giving their time and sharing their knowledge is a great thing.
Over the past month or so I have begun preparing to buy my first investment property, hoping for it to be the first of many and help to secure a great lifestyle for my family into the future. I am excited, but am starting to second guess myself in terms of getting my situation right from the outset and also wondering if i know enough. A bad case of Analysis Paralysis it seems.
Just a quick rundown of my situatiuon.
Single income family $100k. Owe $329K on my house which has had a bank valuation at $445K.
I have already paid LMI on this mortgage as I borrowed 96% at the time and have been told by the bank that they can take my LVR back up to 90% with a minimal LMI top up fee.
So it seems I can access about $70K of my equity.
I would like to purchase something in the Illawarra in the low to mid $200's just to dip my toe so to speak. Commonly properties in the areas I am looking sell for $240K and rent for $280/$290 so the property will most likely be negatively geared.
What is the best course of action from here?
Should I get a LOC for the $70K, using it as a deposit to fund 80% as a separate loan for the IP? (I'm not particularly loyal to any lender so another lender may suit)
How do i setup transaction accounts for rent in, expenses out, interest payments for line of credit, etc?
I want to be sure that I am not causing issues for future purchases and from a taxation standpoint and convince myself to finally jump in and stop procrastinating.
Anything else you guys can think of would be most appreciated.
Thanks
What a lot of you new investors are struggling with is understanding that you're no longer investing in growth times like the 00's but are operating in markets that for the most part are tracking sideways to down. Those few markets where growth still exists on average are precarious at best as conditions tighten.
Unless you have lots of wiggle room then investing in these times requires a more stringent appraisal of strategies. In your case Joey you are leveraging to the max on a CF- property in a sideways to down market with a high probability of negative CG growth as global economic challenges put pressure on Australian economic conditions.
Your financial profile, experience and investing approach is about as high risk as it comes. Your choice of the Illawara probably goes to lack of experience. This region is showing signs of rising unemployment and a transition away from resources to services. The only real driver in that economy is the Uni and given global challenges its impact may be constrained going forward. I don't see anything on the horizon that presents any compelling reason to invest in the region.
I tend to think you need to focus on building a stronger position for the time being. There's not a lot of point jumping into a market that is in all likely hood going to cost you wealth not increase it. You need to ensure your first property is CF+ and doesn't leave you overly exposed to market movements. With your current plan a 5% move against you would invariably see you in negative equity territory. In this climate it could take years for that position to correct while in the meantime it cripples you financially.
Some basic tips;
- don't risk your grubstake (equity in PPOR) on high risk low margin plays
- avoid -CF like the plague or figure out how to make it CF+
- look for opportunities to build at least some equity in a new acquisition
- CG is 50% of the game – invest where there is potential for it
Hi Joey
Firstly welcome to the forum and i hope you enjoy your time with us.
I see it every day of the week with clients that they over analyse when really they should probably let the emotion be taken out of the equasion by engaging a professional.
Property investment is a business and as such needs professionals on your side.
Certainly on the lending side if you have already paid the LMI and your existing Bank are happy to set up a sub equity loan (do not let them use redraw) then why wouldn't you let them proceed this way. As far as the new loan and going forward unless serviceability is an issue i would probably cop some LMI and take a 90% lvr and use the balance of funds for the next IP purchase.
If deposit funds are limited there are a couple of products that might suit with in view to maximising your cash funds going forward.
This way you could probably buy one in the Illawarra area and another interstate spreading your risk.
In regards to where to buy there are few excellent property sourcing members on the forum who can probably advise you better than i can although as I mentioned tread carefully and ensure your structure is set up right from day 1.
No need to spend months debating on whether it is a good idea or not, take the bull by the horns and access the services of appropriate professionals.
Cheers
Yours in Finance
Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender
Freckle,
Despite the fact you didn't actually answer any of my questions, I appreciate the response nonetheless, even if it was a bit "ranty".
The reason I have chosen the Illawarra as the place to invest is that I live in the region and it is my intention to buy properties cheaply and add value through functional renovations, thereby increasing rental yield.
Luckily I am capable of undertaking the majority of work myself and have a supply of tradie mates that can assist on jobs that I cannot do alone.
The specific areas that I am looking at have vacancy rates around 1% and an average gross yield of 6%. The rental market is quite tight in Wollongong.
I think your analysis of the Illawarra may be a bit simplistic but an opinion it is. The university is obviously and important economic driver but so is Port Kembla, and with expansion plans underway it should be even more so. The Hospital and medical services in general expanding are also important for the area. By all accounts, Bluescope appears to be in a stronger position after the last restructure and even so it is not the only thing sustaining the region.
Obviously if I can buy cheaply I should not need to use the entire $70K of equity and will therefore remain below 90% LVR on my PPOR and keep funds in reserve as a contingency. This being the first step, I intend to tread carefully and not over commit myself. At this stage I am sticking to my numbers and am waiting until vendors become a little more "motivated" which will give me scope to make the IP as close to neutral or +ve cashflow as possible.
Thanks again and I hope to hear many more opinions from experienced investors.
I would do the following:
1. Since you have paid LMI already stick with your current bank and draw upon the equity. Do this by creating a separate loan account. So you will have 2 loan accounts, one in the amount of $329k and second in the amount of $70k. I would have the second loan as a std variable with a linked offset and have the funds sitting in the offset until such time as you find the new IP.
2. Take out a loan for 80% against the new property – this could be with the same lender or a new lender. It comes down to what is the best option.
One thing to consider is post this IP – if your longer term strategy is to purchase more properties then you may want to consider borrowing at 90 or even 95% lend on this pruchase so you have enough cash/equity on the next purchase. LMI on a $250k purchase at a 95% is not huge and it is tax deductible for the first 5 years.
Who is the current lender?
Regards
Shahin
TheFinanceShop | Elite Property Finance
http://www.elitepropertyfinance.com
Email Me | Phone MeResidential and Commercial Brokerage
QLDS,
Thanks also for your response.
I have been fairly unemotional throughout the property finding process to date, but have been concerned that my structure is setup correctly from the get go. It may be time to go back to the accountant for some detailed planning regarding account setup going forward.
He might have a vested interest in ensuring my accounts aren't a mess come tax time.
Cheers
Also change your current loan to IO if its not that already and also have a linked offset to your PPOR loan of $329k. Ensure all credits go into this account including future rent money since this is a non tax deductible loan.
Regards
Shahin
TheFinanceShop | Elite Property Finance
http://www.elitepropertyfinance.com
Email Me | Phone MeResidential and Commercial Brokerage
Shahin,
IMB is my current lender. Fairly conservative by all accounts and are apparently no longer in the broker market.
I would like to keep my options open re buying another IP and also retain a some funds to improve the first IP.
They are super conservative and servicing may be a bit tight. That is because they are a building society.
Regards
Shahin
TheFinanceShop | Elite Property Finance
http://www.elitepropertyfinance.com
Email Me | Phone MeResidential and Commercial Brokerage
I am currently paying P&I at 5.51% variable on my PPOR loan with them and am quite happy for my mortgage to remain with them. At this stage I am paying an extra $400 a month above min. I can see the sense in going IO as my extra payments are in the redraw and in effect not able to be used for a tax deductible purpose.
Thanks. I will look into it with the bank. Unfortunately the manager I have been dealing with is not back for two weeks.
So you can't simply change to IO over the phone?
Regards
Shahin
TheFinanceShop | Elite Property Finance
http://www.elitepropertyfinance.com
Email Me | Phone MeResidential and Commercial Brokerage
JoeyJ wrote:Freckle,Despite the fact you didn't actually answer any of my questions, I appreciate the response nonetheless, even if it was a bit "ranty".
Didn't you say, "I am excited, but am starting to second guess myself in terms of getting my situation right from the outset and also wondering if i know enough. A bad case of Analysis Paralysis it seems."
And here's me thinking you might need a little further knowledge to help you clarify your thoughts.
Quote:The reason I have chosen the Illawarra as the place to invest is that I live in the region and it is my intention to buy properties cheaply and add value through functional renovations, thereby increasing rental yield.Nothing wrong with buying in areas you know best and feel comfortable with. Note that while nominal rent may go up rental yield may stay the same. Yield is the return on the assets value. If its value falls and rents remain the same yield increases and vice versa.
Quote:Luckily I am capable of undertaking the majority of work myself and have a supply of tradie mates that can assist on jobs that I cannot do alone.The specific areas that I am looking at have vacancy rates around 1% and an average gross yield of 6%. The rental market is quite tight in Wollongong.
If vacancy rates are 1% and yields 6% something is wrong. You need to be looking for yields of least 8%+
Quote:I think your analysis of the Illawarra may be a bit simplistic but an opinion it is. The university is obviously and important economic driver but so is Port Kembla, and with expansion plans underway it should be even more so. The Hospital and medical services in general expanding are also important for the area. By all accounts, Bluescope appears to be in a stronger position after the last restructure and even so it is not the only thing sustaining the region.Wollongong for example and that's fairly representative of the region has seen no median house or unit capital growth for 10 years. That speaks volumes for any potential CG in a general sense. There is no substantive economic growth driver for the region. Don't confuse activity for growth.
Quote:Obviously if I can buy cheaply I should not need to use the entire $70K of equity and will therefore remain below 90% LVR on my PPOR and keep funds in reserve as a contingency. This being the first step, I intend to tread carefully and not over commit myself. At this stage I am sticking to my numbers and am waiting until vendors become a little more "motivated" which will give me scope to make the IP as close to neutral or +ve cashflow as possible.Sound reasoning but only part of the puzzle. If your using an IO strategy then you have to be able to push the assets value over time to improve LvR. That means an average CG of around 3%/pa. You can give this an initial shunt with a reno but be careful not to trade the reno revaluation for poor future CG because it makes the figures work today. If you can't get an average gain of 3% over the long term then the deals dead in the water unless somehow you're going to make rental growth work for you as compensation. You also need to recoup entry and exit costs in those CG figures as well
When you find areas with low to no CG over an extended period of time you have to question why you would want to invest there. This is where being a local can mean your decisions are being influenced by convenience and emotive reasoning.
Good luck with it anyway. I don't envy you.
JoeyJ wrote:I will look into it with the bank. Unfortunately the manager I have been dealing with is not back for two weeks.Why do you need to deal with the bank directly? Far easy to use a broker. They process many deals each day and as such come to learn which lenders and loan types are appropriate for which applicants.
Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
Email Me | Phone MeVIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.
This is a scenario where I would recommend that Joey ascertains the loan for the deposit from their current lender since she has paid LMI with the current lender. They can get valuation upfront with another lender but the val would need to come back at $500k for it to be feasible (I don't think it hurts getting a val via ANZ since they do modelled estimates a lot of the times).
Regards
Shahin
TheFinanceShop | Elite Property Finance
http://www.elitepropertyfinance.com
Email Me | Phone MeResidential and Commercial Brokerage
Quote:Luckily I am capable of undertaking the majority of work myself and have a supply of tradie mates that can assist on jobs that I cannot do alone.The specific areas that I am looking at have vacancy rates around 1% and an average gross yield of 6%. The rental market is quite tight in Wollongong.
Quote:If vacancy rates are 1% and yields 6% something is wrong. You need to be looking for yields of least 8%+Aside from higher risk mining locations that in all likelihood would be well out of my budget, it appears to be difficult to find yields above 8%, that are close enough to value add cheaply by myself and fit within my budget.
Quote:I think your analysis of the Illawarra may be a bit simplistic but an opinion it is. The university is obviously and important economic driver but so is Port Kembla, and with expansion plans underway it should be even more so. The Hospital and medical services in general expanding are also important for the area. By all accounts, Bluescope appears to be in a stronger position after the last restructure and even so it is not the only thing sustaining the region.Quote:Wollongong for example and that's fairly representative of the region has seen no median house or unit capital growth for 10 years. That speaks volumes for any potential CG in a general sense. There is no substantive economic growth driver for the region. Don't confuse activity for growth.I don't believe in this instance I am confusing activity for growth. I am equating expansion/infrastructure spending and growth with growth. Furthermore I would debate that there has been no growth in the region. The "Median" can be a deceptive figure as there are some areas that have maintained some nice growth. Whilst 10 yr growth may not be at historically high figures for most areas, I am quite content with areas that have seen 5yr growth of +30%. Your analysis seems quite broad stroke and vague at best. It is fairly apparent to me that you truly have little idea what is occurring in Wollongong. Again it is your opinion however.
Quote:Obviously if I can buy cheaply I should not need to use the entire $70K of equity and will therefore remain below 90% LVR on my PPOR and keep funds in reserve as a contingency. This being the first step, I intend to tread carefully and not over commit myself. At this stage I am sticking to my numbers and am waiting until vendors become a little more "motivated" which will give me scope to make the IP as close to neutral or +ve cashflow as possible.Quote:Sound reasoning but only part of the puzzle. If your using an IO strategy then you have to be able to push the assets value over time to improve LvR. That means an average CG of around 3%/pa. You can give this an initial shunt with a reno but be careful not to trade the reno revaluation for poor future CG because it makes the figures work today. If you can't get an average gain of 3% over the long term then the deals dead in the water unless somehow you're going to make rental growth work for you as compensation. You also need to recoup entry and exit costs in those CG figures as well.As stated above, I believe that even on the most conservative estimation that the areas I will be focusing on will see average growth of at least 3%.
Quote:When you find areas with low to no CG over an extended period of time you have to question why you would want to invest there. This is where being a local can mean your decisions are being influenced by convenience and emotive reasoning.Not entirely correct. I am looking to invest locally for convenience, but in the sense that I can renovate myself and save thousands in the process. However, I am unattached emotionally to any potential property and am guided solely by the numbers.
Thanks again to all contributors
We are talking in generalisations because you haven't provided specifics.
7 – 8% gross yield is around break even and anything less you are on a hiding to nothing. If you can't find them you are either looking in the wrong places or your methodology needs tweaking or both. Over time you can develop a nose for good performers. It can take a little while to get the hang of this skill. It's one of the most asked questions, "Where do I find CF+ properties that offer CG growth?"
A reno recovers your entry exit costs for the most part upfront. You get to start off at a neutral point rather than a negative one and hope to recoup costs over time. It is helpful but not essential to a viable investment. Don't let that factor inhibit your geographical range.
If you can't find properties with 8%+ yield locally then that suggests problems with the area.
High CG increases over short periods are a red flag. It usually signifies a market driven by sentiment not fundamentals. Fundamentals are long term characteristics that underpin long term investments. Sentiment comes and goes like the weather. Beware of areas that have seen rapid revaluations. They almost always correct to the downside or trend line after a peak. The challenge is to find areas that are entering the growth phase. Urban renewal is generally a good sign this is occurring.
Beware of Port Kembla. It helps anchor economic activity but does little to drive it higher. It's always been in a constant state of change but growth has been minimal on average. It's a cargo port in the main and given increases in automation does little to foster employment in the area. If anything higher heavy traffic flows will have a negative impact on some areas.
The wider economic picture for the Illawara is slightly negative given the 3 primary employment hubs, Port, Uni and Health are likely to see either budget constraints or volume falls as the global economic challenges put pressure on exporters and government funded service providers.
Anyone with a few dollars can be an investor but very few turn out to be very successful investors over the long haul. Only a tiny percentage of investors own more than 5 properties. These are challenging times even for the experienced guys who've built fairly substantial wealth over the last 2 decades. Most will have put significant effort into fortifying their balance sheets in the last 2 years. As a newby investing in these times is difficult because your learning the old paradigm of investing when times where idiot proof. You will have to raise your benchmarks to account for risk and take DD to a new level if you're to have any chance of getting up more than just a few rungs on the wealth ladder.
In govt's latest round of budget cuts they've just trimmed $2.5B nationally from Uni's. They're being asked to make a 2% budget cut. That goes with a $3.5B education cut at the end of last year.
University budget cuts to slash research jobs
Multi-billion dollar university budget hit the biggest since 1990s
I'm unsure how that affects Wollongong Uni specifically but the funding pressure is all negative meaning a contracting environment for some time. Unless Uni's can attract corporate and or private funding for research they'll find it difficult if not impossible to maintain their current local economic impact. The more relevant component of Uni activity locally is foreign student numbers. Over all numbers have fallen due to racial and foreign economic issues. It's a mixed bag. Some Uni's do alright others struggle. Again international economic pressures will make lifting student numbers difficult with a high dollar. I only see it becoming more difficult for foreign students over the next few years.
I don't see any economic drivers that will improve the Illawara's prospects for at least the next decade. It's not impossible but it will be a difficult region to grow an investment property for some time.
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