All Topics / General Property / Is my IP positive geared?

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  • Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
    Join Date: 2012
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    This may sound stupid, but i am trying to work out if a recent IP i have purchased is +VE geared and i'm worried i've missed something. Here it goes:

    PURCHASE PRICE                                                   $265K

    RENO COST                                                               $6k

    INTEREST ON LOAN PER YEAR (IO @ 5.7%)      $10395  (borrowed $212K )

    COUNCIL RATES                                                       $1100

    INSURANCE                                                                $400

    PM FEES PER YEAR                                                  $720

    LAND TAX   (approximate guess)                            $300

    Rent is $270 week X 52                                            $14040

                                                  TOTAL                           +$1125

    I know this is wrong, i cant work out what i have left out?? Is stamp duty on purchase price added?

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
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    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    Hi there

    I'd also factor in a budget for maintenance.

    You've also got depreciation to include as well.

    Interest on $212k @ 5.7% should be $12,084

    Did you use borrowed funds to cover the deposit/costs? If so, the interest on that loan should also be included in your sums.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
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    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
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    Hi Jaime,

    The deposit was cash and not borrowed funds. I was thinking about maintenance but not sure how much to allow. I do all maintenance myself and have mates in the right trades so doesn’t cost me that much.

    So based on your adjustment of the interest component I’m negative geared $564 per year (if no major maintenance is required)?

    Thanks again

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
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    Yep, looks like it – but when you add back depreciation it will probably tip into positive territory.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
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    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    There is also the water rates, which will be probably between $180 and $200 per quarter, so $800 per year.

    Your insurance figure looks rather low… I am assuming you are talking freestanding house since you've not mentioned any body corporate fees.  As such I would be very surprised if you could get insurance for under $800…

    Further to Jamie's comment re the interest, interest is calculated daily, added to the balance, and then calculated the next day, added to the balance etc, and then at the end of the month you pay the interest.  This is known as compounding interest.  You can't calculate it just by multiplying by 0.057 as you would if you were calculating interest on say a term deposit account. You have to do it like this:

    Interest is 5.7%.  Per day this is 5.7 / 365 = .015616%.  You divide that by 100 to get .00015616. So your calculation looks like this:

    $212k x 1.00015616 x 1.00015616 x 1.00015616 x 1.00015616 x ,,,,, etc for however many days there are in a month.  So after 30 multiplications (30 days) by 1.00015616 you end up with a figure of $212995.40.  Subtract the original borrowings of $212k and this means you have an interest owings of $995.40 for the month.  So you pay that and then you start again at $212k for the next month, and you multiple by 1.00015616 thirty times, so you pay $995.40 in interest again.  So basically you'll pay $995.40 or thereabouts, 12 times since there are 12 months of the year.  $995.40 x 12 = $11,944.80.  It doesn't match Jamie's figure of $12084 because if you say a year is 12 months of 30 days, you end up with only 360 days.  As you know there are 365 days, so it's not exact but just trying to illustrate to you how compounding interest works.  I figure you'll get the idea.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
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    Hi jac m. Maths was never my strong subject at school. Your calculations look spot on. Yes it is a free standing house in Laverton Vic. Believe it or not insurance is only $400. It’s only insured for $250k, just enough to rebuild.

    I knew I forgot something… Water rates.

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    @jacm
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    Wow – who is the insurer?  Is it just building insurance, or is there also the landlord insurance in there?

    It is important to insure as follows:

    Building insurance – full replacement

    Contents insurance – to cover anything considered to be a "content" in an investment property.  Normally this refers to carpets and window coverings.

    Landlord insurance with tenant protection – to cover rental default, malicious damage by the tenant, putting the tenant in a hotel if damage occurs to the house and you are obliged to pay for them to live elsewhere during repairs

    You also want to have public liability and legal liability cover. 

    This should all come in a standard insurance policy where you've specifically asked to also have landlord insurance.  Be warned, a tenant can do $40k of damage without even trying.  You don't want to be without this cover.

    Also be very clear on whether $250k can indeed rebuild.  Your rebuild cover will have to be enough to pay for demolition of existing building and removal of debris from site, council planning permits and such, the rebuild… and don't forget how expensive driveways, carports, garages and fencing can be.  Can't see how you'd get a new 3 bedder house with all that stuff I mentioned, for $250k.  And then there is landscaping and any decks and such.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    I’m with racv, I’m getting a discount as I have 4 other policies with them plus 2 cars. The building is only insured. I don’t have landlord insurance but your right its not hard to do $40k damage. That’s why you have to be very very strict with your tenants and make sure they’re decent people.

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    Joe you are insane.  I don't see the landlord insurance component as being optional.

    Either way, I really don't think $250k will get you a new house, driveway, carport/garage, fencing and landscaping.

    I'd strongly encourage you to readdress what you insure for.  One incident could easily wipe you out.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    I agree and deep down I should really do something about it. There should be a law where for every dollar a tenant causes in damage, you can cause $2 worth of damage to them.

    I think I need to increase it to $300k. $250k is cutting it fine

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    @jacm
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    Yay!  I've convinced you.  I have achieved something useful today.  Now I just need to work on convincing you to have the landlord insurance bit bolted on smiley

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
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    Actually you made me feel bad! It’s the wake up call I needed!

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
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    @jacm
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    There is also stamp duty, that'll cost around whatever 5% of $260k is.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
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    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of gnggng
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    @gng
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    Does PM fees include letting fees?

    You've use 52 weeks rent.  Do you need to consider where there'll be a period where there'll be no rent?  When I first get mine, I've got 3 weeks vacancy before the tenant start moving in.

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
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    @jamie-m
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    It's probably prudent to include a couple of weeks without rent….and also a weeks rent letting fee to the PM.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    Jamie M wrote:
    It's probably prudent to include a couple of weeks without rent….and also a weeks rent letting fee to the PM.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    That's a good point, it's funny how a few vacant weeks can turn a positive geared property into negative. I've already had to drop $15 off the weekly rent as it has been vacant for over 8 weeks now. Fully renovated house, close to train, etc, yet no body turns up to the open!

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
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    @jamie-m
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    In that case – I wouldn't worry about whether it's CF + or CF – 

    I'd be more concerned about it being vacant for so long!

    Is the asking price in line with similar rentals on the market? 

    What's the PM's feedback been?

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
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    Jamie M wrote:
    In that case – I wouldn't worry about whether it's CF + or CF – 

    I'd be more concerned about it being vacant for so long!

    Is the asking price in line with similar rentals on the market? 

    What's the PM's feedback been?

    Cheers

    Jamie

    I'm asking $270 a week (started at $285). You can rent a very run down house in the same street for $260. Some get as high as $300 a week but end up having 50 students living in the one house. My place is fully renovated (new kitchen, bathroom, floors, blinds, you name it i done it.)

    PM has been doing all she can really . I've thought about changing PM's but what's another PM going to do that this one isn't? People aren't turning up. I think of all the opens in 8 weeks 2 have come, one wasn't interested and the other i wouldn't  even let him live in my dogs kennel.

    The vacancy isn't hurting me but it's nice to have it rented.

    Profile photo of Brisbane 04Brisbane 04
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    @brisbane-04
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    Hi Joe,

                With regards to your insurance its up to you how much you insure for.  You're able to work it out.  For example I recently purchased a property for $247000,  crazy as it may seem I insured it for $250000.  I valued the land at $170,000.  I'm with RACV and  also and got the multi policy discount approx $400.  Yes it would be disappointing if the place burnt down but $250000 will go a long way in building a new house if I have to chip in so be it but I can guarantee you that the property would no longer be worth $247000, it would be worth $360000+ and no reno I could do to it would bring it up to this price.

                  Good Luck Joe 

    Profile photo of Brisbane 04Brisbane 04
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    @brisbane-04
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    Hi Jamie in regards to Landlord Insurance I have  never used it.  Its a personal choice. I am of the opinion providing that you purchase in a decent area, the property is in good condition, and you have a good property manager you can reduce your risk of requiring landlord insurance.  If you vet your tenants well enough you can reduce risk. Tenants nowadays realise there names go on a database and if they stuff up their chances of getting rentals in the future will be affected.  I must say however this is a personal choice so do your sum and work out whether it is worthwhile. 

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