All Topics / General Property / Vacancy rates Port Hedland. Climbing…???
Also from what I can understand, if you want to exercise your exit plan now you’ve left it too late.
Joe wrote:Is rent decreasing? Surely with higher rental vacancies means reduced rentNope. Silly buggers are still asking $700/bedroom/wk on average. My young fella has just been given a new 3 bdrm house by his boss who has said he can let the spare rooms and keep the dosh (wasn't allowed on his previous place). He thinks he'll get $400 – 500/rm. I reckon he'll be lucky at $250 -300/rm. We'll see I suppose.
Joe wrote:Also from what I can understand, if you want to exercise your exit plan now you've left it too lateThere were heaps of 1 bdrm apts sold OTP. They're now trying to get around $1300 – 1500/wk for them. Good luck with that. They were bought for anything from $600k – 800k. Crazy money. All on the basis of rental return. CG will be a bust as will rental return.
Hello Everyone – this is my first post.
@ Freckle – if property is not in your long-term view – why are you here? A forum is indeed a place where all views could – and should – be aired – but I must point out a few things that don't quite stack up in the (many) posts you have made on this thread.
Firstly you provide a graph of property values from 1880 to 2006 – a period of 126 years – and then you proceed and without any explanation – to conclude this is proof property is not for the long-term. This is despite the fact the most recent few decades showed unprecedented growth.
The faults here are many – starting with the period. One and a quarter centuries? I'm struggling to comprehend it. The value of an asset is determined by supply and demand – and the underpinnings of both vary over time so greatly that long-term analyses become more difficult to do the longer the period you choose – unless you carefully take these variations into account in your analysis. If you don't – your conclusions will only have relevance in the historical period you selected (ie an interpretation of what you see) – but would provide no basis for predictions.
Think for a moment. I can't even imagine the differences in the labour force in Australia in 1880 to now. What was the average wage? What was the unemployment rate? Was there even personal tax? Had anyone worked out what the inflation rate was back then – and what were the interest rates and just how much harder was it to get credit to buy housing back then? Or any period on your graph? What was the housing supply? And how do all of these supply/demand factors compare through the period of your graph to now?
I suspect you haven't the vaguest clue.
For a start you might like to inflation-adjust the graph. That would reveal a few things to you – I can guarantee that.
For a given level of housing supply – price demand (the $ value those who seek to buy property will offer) is largely a factor of people's ability to pay – as traditionally in Australia we try and buy the 'best we can afford'. This comes down largely to employment & wage levels and interest rates. In essence – these are the things that determine the size of the monthly rental payment someone can afford to pay – and hence govern how much they can borrow/pay for any given property.
My guess is as good as yours as to what the future holds for these parameters in the short/medium term – but in the long-term its difficult for me to see a massive decline in these factors. As a matter of fact – they are likely to improve – how much I don't know – but property prices will reflect them in national medians over time.
You can actually see this in your graph…
Anyway – the discussion here is about Hedland and it's vacancy rate. Back on track now.
Hedland – according to Kelly Howlett (the Mayor) last time I spoke to her which was in July last year – Port/South Hedland had around 6,000 dwellings – and the 163 available on RE.COM as of a minute ago represents a 2.8% vacancy rate.
Um – big deal.
Hedland is a tight market and 75% of the town is investor owned – and hence when availability drops close to zero in a hot market rents jump as tenants over-bid each other for the small number of available properties whose leases end or new properties are completed and come onto the market. These artificially high rent levels are then integrated into ongoing leases by way of rent reviews.
As the majority of tenants in town are companies – who basically 'pass the parcel' of higher rents along the chain ultimately to the major exporters (who have gazillions) – in high demand situations there is no effective 'upper limit' on rents as would be experienced in say – Sydney – as individual dwellings are only rarely rented by companies for their staff there and most people's wages simply don't increase enough for landlords to bump their rent by a third in a year – as Hedland has seen in the last 2-3 years.
This is how Hedland has achieved the record rents it has in more recent times.
The way down is more interesting – and we're seeing it happen now. I'll now try and make sense of the increas in the vacancy rate from 0% to under 3% – still no cause for the world to end.
In the Pilbara there is ALWAYS a slowdown from late October-February due to people not wanting to be there due to the extreme heat of summer. School is out so teachers vacate for the holidays, non-essential contractors time their contracts so they don't have to hang around in 50+ degrees, and many construction-related activities avoid this period due to heat and cyclonic conditions from Dec-April.
So many of the vacancies referred to in this post relate to this annual effect.
BHP laid off many contracting groups in Sept/Oct last year – partly due to spiralling costs (in part due to massively increasing rents!!!) – and partly to offload 'dead wood' like Jan De Nul Dredging who had a codicil on their contract that was so unpalatable to senior management they were shown the door in no uncertain terms! These contractors ALL left town at roughly the same time – dumping more vacant capacity on the seasonally slowing market.
A further complicating factor was a zoning change that allowed for higher density development in early 2012 in parts of Port Hedland – and the slow process of getting around to building to these higher densities took until – you guessed it – late 2012 to come onto market.
So there were unprecedented numbers of NEW dwellings – including something rarely seen in such numbers before in Port – one bedroom units/villas – completing at exactly this time.
The new one bedders's rentals peaked at around $1650 in July/Aug 2012 – and new two bedders were roughly $1850. So the cost to accommodate an employee was (and still is) astronomical for these 1br's and hence many of these are still on both the rental market as never tenanted properties and occupy for sale listings as well.
It will take another bull run for these to be taken up – that's for sure! Don't touch them with a bargepole whatever you do!
I was caught in this perfect storm. I bought a property and the reno wrapped late Oct 2012 – and it lay empty until 1st Jan and is on a one year lease. The rent last year would have been $3800pw – the rent is now $2800pw.
While that did make me sad it still is $145,000 a year for me to sit on my ass! Boohoo I'm not getting $180,000 – but seriously – where else do you get these returns?? Even if you halved them they're astronomical! And they won't halve.
Not at 2.8% vacancy.
What will – and has – happened – is that the 'silly' apppreciation in rents over the last 12 months is wiped back down to levels the town is more used to – with a nice 3×1 renting for around $2000 per week. Despite this my 2br's apartments in Port are all on $1900pw (one recently rent reviewed UP from $1650pw in Jan 2013) – so most/all of the currently leased properties are still killing it – but as leases end and rent reviews are done these will drop to market.
Remember there are two drivers to Hedland's rental demand – operational demand – and construction demand. Operational demand is largely static (the guys that run the Port infrastructure itself, Council workers, McDonald's staff, local bottlo, etc) and will slightly rise after the current MASSIVE Inner Harbour project is completed around 2015 This project has foisted huge construction demand on the town with the equivalent of 4 Olympic Games being spent in a town with a population on 28,000 over a 4 year period!!
The impact on the rental market when the Inner Harbour wraps will be a bigger version of what we are seeing now – possibly taking a year for vacancies to be taken up. But they will. At lower rents as the total demand in the town will be less and supply slightly higher as new housing comes on line.
The global outlook for iron ore is such that BHP's Outer Harbour is unlikely to be started anytime soon because as a standalone project it would single-handedly be creating worldwide industry overcapacity undermining the entire industry's returns – so isn't viable in the current economic climate. Without it there will be NO major iron ore project in town for who knows how long – so rentals will reflect the background operational demand vs supply for the next few years until the Outer Harbour kicks off or the pie in the sky gas projects get a green light – which depends on so many factors it may never happen – or if it does – may bypass Hedland entirely.
So there's my 2c worth.
Cheers!
DocH wrote:2.8% vacancy rate.Um – big deal.
So lets see if a rental market moves 3% points in a little over 6 months that's quite reasonable in your opinion.
Quote:The way down is more interesting – and we're seeing it happen now. I'll now try and make sense of the increas in the vacancy rate from 0% to under 3% – still no cause for the world to end.Not yet but if this rate hits 10% you'll have a problem.
Quote:In the Pilbara there is ALWAYS a slowdown from late October-February due to people not wanting to be there due to the extreme heat of summer. School is out so teachers vacate for the holidays, non-essential contractors time their contracts so they don't have to hang around in 50+ degrees, and many construction-related activities avoid this period due to heat and cyclonic conditions from Dec-April.So many of the vacancies referred to in this post relate to this annual effect.
Lived there for 5 years until mid 2012 and was back there in Nov Dec for JDN demob. I have 2 sons that work there and the wife FIFO's in and out of the place on a casual basis. In all that time vacancy rates never changed. If anything they got tighter. I know no one who would even consider giving up a rental just to leave for a few months. They were simply too hard to reacquire. My busiest months where the summer months so this slow down theory is a mystery to me.
50+ .. where do you get this from? I can't recall PH ever getting to 50+. The record for PH is 49 in Jan 2008. The wet season it usually sits around 42 and then only after Xmas
Contractors rarely get the choice when to start a contract. The primary factor that affected contractors was accommodation availability.. simple. The fact is you cannot preplan contracts around what the weather may or may not do. The last 2 seasons average summer temps have been sub 40.
Quote:BHP laid off many contracting groups in Sept/Oct last year – partly due to spiralling costs (in part due to massively increasing rents!!!) – and partly to offload 'dead wood' like Jan De Nul Dredging who had a codicil on their contract that was so unpalatable to senior management they were shown the door in no uncertain terms! These contractors ALL left town at roughly the same time – dumping more vacant capacity on the seasonally slowing market.BHP and FMG and all the other producers have one priority.. production. When productions at risk BHP will spend any amount of money to maintain it. Rental costs are a rounding error to BHP
BHP laid off contractors because the price crashed. They all got a big wakeup call with regard to their assumptions on China and global demand. JDN moved on because the Outer harbor project was canned. They still have a laydown yard at Redbank and may be back this year for an FMG contract. JDN's work force is tiny compared to overall numbers. The bulk of their guys are fitter welders. Gravity do all their rigging and crane work. JDN were always a headache to work with but they were only shown the door because they were no longer needed.
Contractors left town over this period because the slow down is happening faster than most thought possible. Major infrastructure projects will complete over the next 12 – 15 months and there's absolutely nothing following behind them. We're into March now and the place is dead quite according to my sources.
If your summer season fluctuations theory had any merit you'd see vacancy rates shrinking back but they're still climbing.
Quote:A further complicating factor was a zoning change that allowed for higher density development in early 2012 in parts of Port Hedland – and the slow process of getting around to building to these higher densities took until – you guessed it – late 2012 to come onto market.Agh??? High density high rise was kicked off in 2011 .. Pretty Pool ring a bell?. The planning for that was set in motion a few years beforehand. The Esplanade Hotel expansion and the new low rise cnr Edgar and Anderson??
Quote:I was caught in this perfect storm. I bought a property and the reno wrapped late Oct 2012 – and it lay empty until 1st Jan and is on a one year lease. The rent last year would have been $3800pw – the rent is now $2800pw.While that did make me sad it still is $145,000 a year for me to sit on my ass! Boohoo I'm not getting $180,000 – but seriously – where else do you get these returns?? Even if you halved them they're astronomical! And they won't halve.
So now the balancing act becomes can you keep it rented for long enough for high enough rents to offset costs, rental challenges that are likely to be even more onerous in 2014 if this trend continues and of course there's a CG issue hanging in the air. I recall house sitting for a friend back in 07/08. A near new 4,2,1 (in Sth) that he was renting then for $700/wk. He was moaning then that they were about to put his rent up to $800
Quote:so most/all of the currently leased properties are still killing it – but as leases end and rent reviews are done these will drop to market.And rents have dropped around 25% already you say. I wonder where the market will be in another 6 months. Perhaps another 25% drop is on the cards as more investors scramble to acquire what few renters remain. With 160+ vacancies and growing rentals could become a bloodbath.
Quote:The impact on the rental market when the Inner Harbour wraps will be a bigger version of what we are seeing now – possibly taking a year for vacancies to be taken up. But they will. At lower rents as the total demand in the town will be less and supply slightly higher as new housing comes on line.The Inner Harbor is BHP's baby. You also have the wind down over the next 12 – 15 months of FMG's projects. The big gas projects are highly unlikely to get off the ground in their present form if at all and the smaller projects are unlikely to have any real affect on PH especially from an accommodation stand point. From where I stand I can't see vacancy rates declining at all. In fact I see rates climbing for the next 18-24 months.
Doc Holliday wrote:Hello Everyone – this is my first post.Think for a moment. I can't even imagine the differences in the labour force in Australia in 1880 to now. What was the average wage? What was the unemployment rate? Was there even personal tax? Had anyone worked out what the inflation rate was back then – and what were the interest rates and just how much harder was it to get credit to buy housing back then? Or any period on your graph? What was the housing supply? And how do all of these supply/demand factors compare through the period of your graph to now?
I suspect you haven't the vaguest clue.
Welcome to the forum Doc. A very interesting and ambitious first post.
"i suspect you haven't the vaguest clue". I suspect that The Freckle will take up the challenge to conclusively demonstrate to you that you have made an erroneous assumption here. If you hope to defend your position, be prepared for a time consuming debate that will require you to back up your position with a formidable array of statistics and information, or you will undoubtedly be overwhelmed!
I look forward to following the discussion.
Your spelling of labor above-"labour"…are you perhaps like me of American origin?
Cheers,
Tony
A couple of tips Doc. Cross posting is generally frowned upon in every forum I've ever participated in.
If you want to quote someone you can use the quote tags .. see following
[*quote=Freckle]…[/quote] (remove the * from the first tag to activate) which looks like
Freckle wrote:blah blah blahIf the reference is another page or thread you can refer to it by going to the post, right clicking the post number in the side column and selecting "Copy Link Address" and pasting into your reply like this. The following link is to your post above
https://www.propertyinvesting.com/comment/284618#comment-284618
or you can embed the link into a key word by highlighting the word then selecting the link icon in the comment box menu bar above and pasting the link into the appropriate block eg; your post
So I recommend you edit the above thread and paste the first half into the appropriate thread so we can all stay on the same page. I'll address your comments there.
Jeez vacancies up 9 since 1Mar (17 days) That's a new vacancy every 2 days!!!
So we're still on track for an average of 17 new vacancies per month. That's got to be hurting.
Sell at 217. If for sales start to climb again it's all over red rover.
Freckle wrote:Locks like Doc doesn't want to play Moxie.For a second I thought he was going to challenge you and stick it to you right to the very end! Obviously not game enough.
jmsrachel wrote:Freckle wrote:Locks like Doc doesn't want to play Moxie.For a second I thought he was going to challenge you and stick it to you right to the very end! Obviously not game enough.
Hmmm…. maybe he's gone back to the OK Corral to fetch the Earp Brothers
So for end of March we're looking at
Listings:
rentals 167 (up 10 for the month)
for sale 224 (up 5 for the month)
It looks like sales listings are on the move upwards. This could get interesting in that only 1 sale was listed for Feb and 2 for Mar at this time. There were no sales in Dec or Jan at all.
There's still quite a bit of new accommodation to come on stream over the next 6 months. That's got to hurt prices.
Rentals just jumped 5 in one week
Rentals now 172 up from 167 7 days ago…
I thought the drop in the rate of change of rentals was optimistic. It seems I was premature. The increase in rentals seems to still be hovering around an average of 0.5/day
4sale has risen as well
231 up 7 from 224
Rentals 187. Up 15 in 17 days!!!
4Sale 248. Up 24 in 17 days!!!
Anecdotal info indicates people are moving from the caravan parks to cheaper rental housing. Some of this is subsidised local authority housing for non resource company employees. That's an interesting trend. When I first arrived there in 07 we were paying around $130/wk for a powered site. That eventually went to $400 in some parks. They also cleared the sites for transportables that they could charge up to $400/night. It was all but impossible to obtain even basic accommodation by early 12. How things have changed. Anecdotal again but I believe the camps are running at close to 50% occupancy.
Holy moly!!
4Sale just jumped to 259 up another 11 in 7 days!!!
Rentals just cracked 200 up 13 in 7 days.
Looks like its all on for young and old.
My guess is that we are now looking at an impending collapse in both prices and rents with absolutely nothing on the horizon that could possibly save this situation.
Looks like Doc doesn't want to play Moxie.
Doc Holliday wrote:I suspect you haven't the vaguest clueHow's that working out Doc?
That bad eh.
Any update Freckle?
4Sale – 288 and they still want crazy money
4Rent – 206 eased off a bit
4Sale – 310 still climbing… rumor has it that council is still planning on building dozens of rental properties for SME's and other non mining businesses.
4Rent – 210 My oldest son is now looking to relocate locally and the word he is getting is that those looking to rent are putting offers in way under asking price. Prices are getting down to around 250 – 300/rm/wk for reno'd properties he's looking at. That's a massive drop when 400/rm/wk was considered the lowest level.
Those who bought in the last few years must be in one painful place. I'm starting to hear of those with properties for sale now looking at modest equity losses at this point (5 – 10%). I'm starting to draw the conclusion we will see a price retracement in the order of 30 – 40% off the highs by early 2014
Fascinating thread.
It would appear Doc Holliday's "2 cents worth" is actually only worth 1.5 cents………..and falling.
Current property investors in the Port Hedland area appear to have a dilemma.
Do they cut their losses sell up and run, or ride out the storm and hope things stabilize or even rebound??
Unfortunately their losses are magnified as it is such an expensive market to buy into.
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