My understanding is this- A true socialist economy means the following.
There are 100 people operating business A. These should each take 1% of annual profit and no individuals own the means or production personally. This is owned by the government and the government distributes profits from the business to everyone.
Our Australian society is a capitalist one in which those who own the means of production are able to exploit others for profit.
This means if you are employed for a business your employer may pay you half your labour value while keeping half for itself.So for example Telstra CEOs are exploiting many people for profit as they effectively are owners of the means of production and the phone company and exploit many people to pay their huge salaries.
This variant of socialism is not one which says people are not allowed to have wealth and buy property. It is simply one which says we should not exploit others for profit.
Most small businesses exploit others for wealth to a small or large degree.
one could argue that a business owner is carrying all the risks of the business they are in why shouldnt they be rewarded for that?, compared to the employees they are exploiting who show up each day and trade their time for money.
True socialism works perfectly lol until the money runs out
In true socialism nobody has to take risk as nobody personally owns the means of production. This is owned by government.
Everybody would be given a job based on the requirement for jobs but would be paid an equal share of profit by government.
Every person should be allowed to potentially have wealth and stop working whenever they are able by means of selling time to government.
Everybody is actually employed by government as everything is owned by it.
What it also means is that the only thing that takes risk is the government.
Give your friend the keys to the liquor cabinet.
Tell him he's allowed a small glass a day .. and the rest is for everyone else.
And tell him he's in charge of it and its his responsibility.
You'll get roughly the same response you will get from any socialist government.
The liquor will be gone .. the excuses will be many and there will be no responsibility AS THERE IS NO INCENTIVE to act responsible. So .. nothing gets done.
I think greed is a great insentive to go to work, a great insentive to do great or poor things and a great insentive to act responsonability or irresponsibly.
The bottom line is that greed gets things done!
I also believe this is the insentive you speak of but you think it is only present in a traditional capitalist setting in which people are allowed to own the means of production. I do not understand this as according to the above guidelines greed can become prominent even in a socialist society in which all are allowed to potentially be greedy.
As a side note, Aristotle says greed is good only in moderation in which it manfests as ambition. A total lack of greed is sloth which means to be lazy.
The only block for socialism to work effectively is people. I like film maker’s MIke Moore’s view that capitalism and socialism don’t work as they are outdated, and there needs to be a NEW alternative.
I came across this story recently:
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on a socialist plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
itsandrew
Go as far as you can see and you will see further.
I guess the only person who had the power was the professor handing out the grades too. Animal Farm, George Orwell “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others”.
Unfortunately though Capitalism today essentially encourages people to want to get wealthy at the expense of others. I was part of the process…. and also a victim of it. Think about that also when you have a drink of coffee, purchase some jewelry are even when you buy clothing. People don’t think about that.
The next time someone goes on a rant to you about how awful Capitalism is … hand them a sachet containing a teaspoon of sugar.
And explain to them this.
Capitalism has meant that you now own a sachet of sugar.
Free markets allowed people to compete on the best sugar prices and deliver to you as much sugar as you needed, possibly MORE than you needed.
With that sugar which is rendered to 100% purity thanks to competing capitalist markets .. you are able to receive cheap and affordable sugar to add to just about anything you eat.
In fact .. prices on sugar have been driven down to such a level that across most markets .. sugar is now available in most products to just about everyone. Pure .. untampered sugar .. available in large quantities.
That sugar is a fast easy release method of converting raw product into energy. So .. by having a competing capitalist market fighting for your right to achieve a market of pure unadulterated sugar … you have a fast method of achieving a cheap supply of energy rich food to your body. And thanks to the competition for price .. available to just about everyone.
Thats just one product. Imagine what real Capitalism is doing for you without your understanding of it everyday.
Now .. put that sugar into your coffee .. and then ask me about where the coffee beans came from. And i'll introduce you to the coffee shop. Pure capitalism at its finest.
Now inhabited by leftist trendies who sit there with their capitalist sugar .. and their cheap capitalist coffee .. and complain about how bad all this capitalism is.
Capitalism is about competition and greed. I see it is true capitalist countries progress faster than all others. In my opinion why is this?
Greed is the desire for more than what you need but is also a powerful emocion which can push the human brain to it’s limits of creativity and innovation. This means capitalism is responsible for driving down the cost of food and the cost of all sorts of things as capitalism allows businesses to work more efficiently. As business owners get greedy they push their minds hard in order to figure out how to pay their staff easier, make product cheaper and make more money for themselves.
Make no mistake I think capitalism is the way of the future but I also believe strongly capitalism can exist without exploitatiion of others for profit (the socialist economy). So I believe a capitalist society can exist inside a socialist economy.
The entire western society has significant wealth compared to less developed parts of the world. Why? Capitalism, not exploitation!
For your definition I studied this stuff at uni and a socialist economy is one which no exploitation of others occurs and nobody personally owns the means of production. This was the way Karl Marks described it.
In the states exploitation is worse to the point were you will earn about $5US per hour to work at macdonalds and here at least you will earn about $15-23 depending on your age to do the same thing. This is because we have unions and laws on minimum wage.
Istvan051 wrote:Capitalism is about competition and greed. I see it is true capitalist countries progress faster than all others. In my opinion why is this?Greed is the desire for more than what you need but is also a powerful emocion which can push the human brain to it’s limits of creativity and innovation. This means capitalism is responsible for driving down the cost of food and the cost of all sorts of things as capitalism allows businesses to work more efficiently. As business owners get greedy they push their minds hard in order to figure out how to pay their staff easier, make product cheaper and make more money for themselves.
Make no mistake I think capitalism is the way of the future but I also believe strongly capitalism can exist without exploitatiion of others for profit (the socialist economy). So I believe a capitalist society can exist inside a socialist economy.
The entire western society has significant wealth compared to less developed parts of the world. Why? Capitalism, not exploitation!
For your definition I studied this stuff at uni and a socialist economy is one which no exploitation of others occurs and nobody personally owns the means of production. This was the way Karl Marks described it.
In the states exploitation is worse to the point were you will earn about $5US per hour to work at macdonalds and here at least you will earn about $15-23 depending on your age to do the same thing. This is because we have unions and laws on minimum wage.
But does a true socialist economy described by Karl Marks with no ‘exploitation of others’ and ‘no ownership of production’ actually exist? I would argue strongly that it doesn’t. Many argue that socialism has infact failed.
My thoughts are, and I too have studied at a post graduate level (for what it’s worth……), is that socialism in its true form or corrupted form suffocates humanity. It encourages social welfare to the detriment of peoples ambition to improve themselves to the betterment of the social fabric. Socialism stifles entrepreneurship and business accruement. Socialism is the perfect vehicle to diminish free spirit and control the masses. My point in case…China and Russia.
I’m not saying that capitalism is the silver bullet, every system has its corruption but I’ll take the freedom that comes with capitalism any day over the oppressive model of socialism.
Wikipedia defines 'Socialism' as:
- "a social and economic system (or the political philosophy advocating such a system) in which the economic means of production are owned and controlled collectively by the people. Many socialist ideas come from Marxism (more commonly, "communism"), which essentially calls for a reversal of what we know as the structure of society. In The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx predicts that the proletariats will overthrow the bourgeoisie (which seems to be happening to some degree). The bourgeoisie are upper management and upper class, the white collar workers, while the proletariats are the working class, the blue collar workers. Since the proletariats "do all the work", Marx and other socialists suggest that they should get an equal share of the wealth. A Marxist society would have no private property rights and goods produced in it would be distributed among the citizens–"from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
Robert Kiyosaki in his conspiracy of the Rich Bulletin puts it in much simpler words:
- "Socialists have the Robin Hood theory of economics, which is 'take from the rich to give to the poor'. Socialists believe the government should solver our problems for us. Capitalists believe… that we should solver our own problems."
B. Taylor, 2006, Socialism vs Capitalism:
- "The idea of a Marxist society is very alluring. In today's world of freedom and fairness, the notion of everyone being completely equal, even if this means taking from the rich and giving to the poor, seems just; however, the defect in Marxism is obvious. It is dependent on a type of human nature that is hard to come by. For Marxism to work, very little greed and jealosy can exist and people must have a general feeling of charity and a willingness to work their hardest for the good of everyone. These are obviously not common traits. Marxism could also work if those who have the greatest abilities and those who work the hardest are satisfied with rewards equivalent to those with lesser abilities and those who don't work hard at all. This is also very unlikely. Marxism undoubtedly leads to free riding and slacking.
- On the other hand, capitalism utilizes the willpower of individuals, especially entrepreneurs, to foment economic activity. Capitalism is based on the assumption that individuals operate based on self interest; however, by doing so they not only help themselves, but also propel others towards economic success. As Adam Smith put it, "by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for society that it was no part of his intention. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."
Margaret Thatcher, longest serving Prime Minister of the United Kingdom summarizes Socialism quite well:
- "Socialism works until you run out of other people's money"
I used to think socialism was a good idea. I think the underlying principle of egalitarianism is a good idea. BUT, I think in practice the socialist model fails. History has shown us this. Also, I don't think that the means of production belongs in the hands of the government. I believe it should be in the hands of the people, and I think that capitalism is the best way for people to succeed (if they work hard and merit the rewards).
Now, I believe in capitalism, and I think that capitalism is the best way to support innovation, ambition and industry. Nonetheless, I do recognize the limits of capitalism, especially with regards to public goods and social inequalities that may not be simply be overcome by the market.
Is the economic collapse of the USSR forgotten already ?
For some it's the elephant in the room.
Capitalism works, the need to exchange time and effort for money drives people to go to work.
Centrelink doesn't seem to drive many people to work.
The capital seeks the labour, the labour seeks the capital. Old story.
Anyone who thinks the exchange is unfair, stay home.
Socialism suits those who just want a free ride, and was used very effectively in the past by political parties to exploit and incite the unsuspecting working masses to revolution, and the outcome, which was eventually a failure, was just a different group of fat cat all powerful chiefs but in drab outfits. Talk about exploitation !!
cheers
thecrest
thecrest | Tony Neale - Statewide Motel Brokers
http://www.statewidemotelbrokers.com.au
Email Me | Phone Meselling motels in NSW
thecrest wrote:Is the economic collapse of the USSR forgotten already ?For some it's the elephant in the room.
Capitalism works, the need to exchange time and effort for money drives people to go to work.
Centrelink doesn't seem to drive many people to work.
The capital seeks the labour, the labour seeks the capital. Old story.
Anyone who thinks the exchange is unfair, stay home.
Socialism suits those who just want a free ride, and was used very effectively in the past by political parties to exploit and incite the unsuspecting working masses to revolution, and the outcome, which was eventually a failure, was just a different group of fat cat all powerful chiefs but in drab outfits. Talk about exploitation !!
cheers
thecrest
Certainly seen the effects of this phenomenon recently here in NSW with the HSU…..Exploitation of those they were representing.
Bring on the next Federal election I say and banish this ridiculous minority government.
Greed is everything, Businesses exploit its workers. Yes, they take all the risk, but still they should pay a decent salary to its employees. True socialism is hard to achieve. I do not think any country has ever build a true socialism.
Just like capitalism mattsta. Every system has its flaws and will fall apart one day. Communism is changing (the bods at the top became fat and lazy), socialism (the bods at the top become fat and lazy), Capitalism (everyone in the middle and top become fatter and lazier) and the system may implode unless it is continually propped up by the Chinese who are buying up the US/Euro debt.
Absolutely agree Scott No Mates. Every system falls apart eventually. We have seen everywhere through history, but have not learnt from it…
Greed and need motivates people to work and be industrious.
Capitalism addresses the need to exchange that work for income.
Systems fall apart eventually without strict control.
People rebel eventually against oppression.
So perhaps we should be looking for a capitalistic democracy run by a benign dictator or sovereign with no Centrelink.
Googling it now.
Cheers
thecrest
thecrest | Tony Neale - Statewide Motel Brokers
http://www.statewidemotelbrokers.com.au
Email Me | Phone Meselling motels in NSW
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