All Topics / Help Needed! / Advice needed on structure issues

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  • Profile photo of johnosbournejohnosbourne
    Member
    @johnosbourne
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 1

    Howdy all

    My parents have a situation with their properties and I would love to hear peoples recommendations on what they can do to better their position. Situation is…

    They own approximately 10 investment residential properties, a few blocks of land and still both currently working and would earn an approximate joint income of $200k from their wages alone. (They are not self employed so do not have any companies or trusts that they can maneuver with).The only outstanding debt they have is $100k from the last house they purchased but the rest are debt free. Obviously they have a healthy equity base.

    Most of the houses were purchased years ago for prices under $100k and less and now be worth $400k+. One of the blocks of land is valued at approx 1.5 mil.

    They are based in SA. The main issue they have is between land tax and rates and everything else they are paying they have a heavy outlay each year just to maintain this situation with few or none of the tax benefits they could utilise. Their current accountant simply says there is nothing that can be done to better this situation but I think there would be a way for people in the know.

    Can they create a property or family trust? Should they sell some properties, cop CGT on the sale but at least repurchase properties under the correct structure? Should they just pass on their lifetime worth of asset saving to their son and let him just run rampart with it all?

    Would really apprecite your insights into this.

    Regards
    John

    Profile photo of swampy30swampy30
    Member
    @swampy30
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 85

    Hi John,

    It’s a nice “problem” for your parents to have!

    What would they be trying to achieve, apart from tax minimisation? As you seem to be aware, transferring properties into a trust would trigger CGT, so that would be a big price to pay.

    Do they want to develop their land? How many years until they want to retire?

    I’m sure someone more knowledgable than myself will reply soon.

    Swampy

    Profile photo of xdrewxdrew
    Participant
    @xdrew
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 479

    Unfortunately your accountant is right.

    You've got a wide selection of properties all with a reasonable appreciation and however .. a large valuation as well. This means really that anything you purchase will be additional to the current assessment and therefore increase your land tax burden.

    Its not an unusual problem to have. The only thing i can think of is to accept the fact you'll be paying the land tax based on the current level of properties you have .. factor the increase in land tax into any future equations you wish to purchase and .. live with it.

    The real thing is the fact that all the properties exist under a single set of names for ownership. As there is no real benefit in paying to shuttle properties across to trusts, what you are left with is utilising what seems like a large growth of equity to fund future purchases in a better structure. Thats possible. And if your parents are earning reasonably well they should be looking at some format of tax minimisation through property anyway. Even with a larger property base.

    The only real way you can minimise on land tax is to purchase structures with a low taxable base land value .. such as a multi-division .. like a unit complex. Site value is then divided by the number of properties on the land .. significantly lowering your assesable land value. Again .. its also accumulative .. so multiples will eventually promote you to a higher land tax bracket. But it starts from a lower base .. so it just takes longer to happen.

    I also cant see why you are getting nervous about CGT. If you have to pay it .. you pay it. You'll be entitled to the 50% deduction for holding over a year .. and if you only sell one item a year .. you can offset that against existing expenses .. or deductions to minimise your tax burden.

    Sum it up nicely .. the only way to avoid land tax is to distribute it, the only way to avoid CGT is to offset it. And for future efforts you should always assess where the property will be going to start with. If purchased under a holding company you give yourself more flexibility on ownership but you lose on the advantages you have by purchasing as sole owner as you catapult yourself into the company rates of tax which are higher.

    Profile photo of Anthony KAnthony K
    Participant
    @anthony-k
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 56

    Hi Johnosbourne & All

    We all know that life has 2 penalties when you invest,
    If your venture fails you can be bankrupt,
    If it succeeds you pay tax, I think this is a better option, but pay the minium legally due.
    A much cleverer guy than me said  "Life is a cruel choice between work and daytine TV". so life is all about choice:
    at least your parents have some choices.
    Not enough detail to decide a way forward but xdrew is on the right track, to make changes use offset strategies for CGT, spread your divestments over time and persons where possible to minimise and THEN offset. deductible SMSF contributions over time can help.
    Remember these key points:
    1. There is a cost to do nothing and a cost to do something – do the study, measure the Benefits v Costs, and make a choice.
    2. A problem well stated (defined) is a problem half solved.
    3. There are 4 "D's" in tax planning, Deduct, Divide, Defer and Discount, a good balanced tax minimisation strategy uses them all.
    4. Every time you decide to proceed with a new venture ALWAYS work out your exit strategy and plan your tax position – BEFORE you go forward.
    .
    Anthony K at A4Companies

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    One option is to transfer a couple of them into a SMSF(Self-Managed Super Fund)…..  you would of course need to do the numbers to see if it was worth it.  The transfer would trigger a CGT event and also require a stamp duty payment due to change of ownership.  One in the SMSF the income would be tax-free at retirement, and taxed at 15% until that time.  Check the relevant state revenue pages for information on how land tax would be handled within a SMSF.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of Anthony KAnthony K
    Participant
    @anthony-k
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 56

    Hi JakM and All
    Sorry JacM cant do: if the properties are: not commercial (Business Real Properrty) and title is in names of (parents) individuals, its prohibited by S66 of SISA.
    The properties must qualify as Business real property to be transferable, there is a useful ATO Ruling issued in 2009 on this subject. Self Managed Superannuation Funds Ruling  SMSFR 2009/1, but its a lot of reading and quite technical but has some good insights. I have been establishing, advising and working with SMSF daily since 1978, so for me I have developed with it as its changed, Nowadays there are many recent newcomers without sufficient depth of experience and SMSF is not something you should get wrong as the penalties can be very  costly and include jail time.
    Regards
    Anthony K at A4Companies

    Profile photo of swampy30swampy30
    Member
    @swampy30
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 85

    @ Anthony K

    What’s the current annual limit to contribute to super?

    Swampy

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    John,

    Transferring properties now will result in CGT and stamp duty. The parents will need to do a cost v benefits analysis and see if any savings make the costs worthwhile.

    Although not possible to transfer residential property already owned into a SMSF they could sell and then buy another in the superfund. The costs to do this may be worthwhile considering the potential tax free income in the future as well as the strong asset protection benefits.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Anthony KAnthony K
    Participant
    @anthony-k
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 56

    Hi Swampy & All
    New reduced contribution limit for 2011/12 tax year is now $25,000 for concessional (deductible) and $150,000 for non-conceesional(non deductible). The government has announced changes that, if passed by parliament, will permanently increase the concessional contributions cap to $50,000 for individuals who have total super balances below $500,000 and are 50 years old or over. Its not like the good old days any more when you could put in $100K at age 49+.
    There is still the back door method using borrowing and leverage to increase the invetsment input, provided there is sufficient cash flow to manage the interest cost. Also there are options if you can amalgamate two SMSF and add an unrelated third party so that the SMSF dont have more that 49% control. The 3 parties can then use a geared unit trust to invest jointly, but this sort of strategy is not for older persons with limited financial muscle and shorter term time to retirement.  The old pr 1999 unit trusts were always the best vehicles when you could put a business in the UT and guide all the profit into the UT. After 2009 it now requires a re-structure for them to be able to function like they did pre 2009 times. These old structurers can still movce around all the caps if used correctly.
    Regards
    Anthony K @ A4Companies

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    Pity!  Would have been a tidy solution if they had any commercial property.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of Anthony KAnthony K
    Participant
    @anthony-k
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 56

    Hi JacM & All
    Yes JacM but if the parents can qualify to make super. contributions, they could proceed like this.
    They  have equity in the properties so they could sell some equity to the kids who can borrow and use parents property as security, It needs to be set up properly on an arms length basis. The kids can deduct the interest and the parents can use the cash to make either or both deductible and non deductible super. contributions and buy new properties in the SMSF using some super. gearing. All parties get benefits this way and risk can be minimised if it is properly planned and documented.

    Also a correction when I said: "The old pr 1999 unit trusts were always the best vehicles when you could put a business in the UT and guide all the profit into the UT." there were 2 typos.

    It should have said: The old PRE 1999 unit trusts were always the best vehicles when you could put a business in the UT and guide all the EXCESS profit into the SMSF."
    Regards to All.
    Anthony K

    Profile photo of PaulliePaullie
    Member
    @paullie
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 217

    wow, your preantes are very lucky to have gone through the boom like that.

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