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  • Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Oh, I was just curious about the certificate of title as I didnt really know what it means and they only told me by chance.
    I thought seeing as I knew there was one it may give me more leads to help understand the structure of the trust. Apparently not as they wont give me any names, rather only tell me that there is one.
    Not sure how much information the accountant will tell me. Have to wait and see

    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Terryw,

    If i wanted to add a new beneficiary to the trust what would be the process involved and who would be able to make the decision?

    I am guessing it may be the director and/or trustee…Also I guess it would involve an ammedment to the trust deed.

    Also, does a resettlement need to occur in order to do so?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    You would have to read the deed. But probably the trustee could amend the deed, though this may need the approval of the appointor and/or guardian.

    Most of the time adding a beneficiary would cause a resettlement.

    An indirect way around this may be the use of corporate beneficiaries. Need to read the deed again to work this out

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Ive just been reading a little online about the executors role upon death of the testator. My father said that my grandad once said he was the executor.

    "What are an executor’s responsibilities?

    In general terms, an executor's duty is to take charge of the deceased's assets and property, see that the funeral and administration expenses as well as debts and taxes are paid and finally to distribute the assets to the beneficiaries in accordance with the will.

    You will have to begin by finding out and making a list of everything the deceased owned or was entitled to. The list could include a home, car, money, bank or building society accounts, furniture, household appliances, jewellery, shares and other investments, insurance policies, superannuation, and holiday pay from work. In addition, if the estate is to be divided between a number of beneficiaries, the assets may have to be valued.

    Next you will have to apply to the Probate Registry of the Supreme Court for a grant of probate. Probate is an order of the court saying that the will is valid and that the executor has the right to administer the estate.

    When applying for probate you will need to complete a number of forms which are prepared by your Solicitor or are available in blank form from a law stationer. You will also need documentary evidence of death, proof of proper signing and attestation of the will, and details of assets and liabilities

    What do I do after probate is granted?

    Once probate has been granted, the executor must collect the deceased's assets and take steps to pay the funeral and administration expenses and any debts or taxes – including income tax – the deceased owed.

    In view of possible liability for capital gains tax, it is important to find out the date and cost of acquisition of the deceased's assets.

    Funeral expenses are to be paid first and there is a particular order in which any other debts must be paid. After funeral expenses are paid, the executor is entitled to payment of any actual expenses incurred relating to the administration of the estate before other debts are paid.

    Once debts have been paid, assets are either distributed according to the terms in the will or they are sold so that money can be divided among the beneficiaries.

    As executor you might have to contact financial organisations and companies in which the deceased had money invested in order to realise those assets, and become involved in selling various pieces of the deceased's belongings such as jewellery, a boat or car.

    A bank account may need to be opened, in the name of the estate, into which all funds belonging or due to the estate must be deposited and from which debts must be paid.

    When and how are the assets distributed?

    When all assets have been identified and, if necessary, sold to raise cash, and all debts have been paid, the remainder of the estate can be distributed to the beneficiaries.

    The executor may distribute the assets if at least six months has passed since the date of the deceased's death and a notice has been published requiring anybody with a claim against the estate to provide particulars of the claim with a specified period – not less than 30 days.

    The executor must prepare a distribution report and statement for the beneficiaries – given to them when they receive their share of the estate – showing what the assets were, how much money resulted from any sale of assets and what expenses and debts were paid from the proceeds.

    Where an executor is applying to the court for commission for his/her administration, detailed accounts have to be filed at the same time with the Probate Registry and all payments and receipts by the executor properly approved"

    What I dont understand is that if the assets are held in a trust structure then the assets should remain in the trust after the death
    of the testator. In this case why would you even need a executor to apply for a probate in order divide the estate between the beneficiaries? Should that not reamin the job of the trustee?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Don't forget trust assets do not pass through the will.So the executor will have no role in dealing with any assets held by a trust.

    If a person has not assets other than those which they indirectly control via a trust then there is no need for probate.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Thats what I thought. Like you say if all assets are held in a trust then the executor will really have no role in relation to any aspect of the managment/transfer of the wealth. If there happens to still be an executor appointed by the testator in the will then that person may still be involved in organising the funeral and a few other things like that.

    However, if there are assets which are not part of the trust. (Such as a family house which are typically often not included in trust structures for capital tax purposes). Then the executor will be given the responsibility in executing those assets to the beneficiaries in accordance of the will.
    <br /:)” title=”>:)” class=”bbcode_smiley” />

    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    My next question, may the executor also be a beneficiary of the will?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    yes

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    Okay, well I think when my father writes the will I will be asking him to make me the executor. However, if down the track we decide to also create a trust of our own, (separate from my granparents), then may I also be named appointer to be in the event of my fathers death. I mean to say, could I be the executor of a will, a beneficiary and an appointer?

    I know ideally the whole family should operate under one trust, its just that I dont think my granparents are interested at this point in including any of us as part of their own trust as they seem to think the trust should only include two people. (i.e husband and wife).

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    You could be appointor of a trust and executor of a will. They are totally separate issues.

    You should also get advice on the asset protection issues involved.

    Also it is not a good idea to have a whole family under one trust. Bad idea possibly because if the trust is attacked all the assets could be at risk. The Family Court can also get at property in a trust. Ideally you should have just one property per trust as this gives the greatest asset protection and flexibility.

    eg. X has 2 children A and B. X dies and leaves the assets in a 1 testamentary discretionary trust. A wants the farm and B wants the office building, but they are in one trust and both must deal with each other in all aspects. If they were in separate trusts A could do what she wants and so could B totally separate. If A later marries and divorces B's trust would be much safer from attack, whereas if it was one trust they whole of the assets could be at risk.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Yes, but what if the farm is worth 2M and the office building is worth 100K? Then if you create a trust A for child A for the farm and trust B for child B for the office building then the assets are not really distributed evenly between the children!

    Is that what you meant or am I not understanding. (i,e one trust for each child and relevent property?).

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    It all depends on how much you have and in what form and how much you want to give to whom.

    It would be difficult to make it even with 2 assets like that, but it would be possible to give part of the office building to the other kid too.
    eg you could leave the office building in a unit trust with 75% of the units owned by A's discretionary trust and 25% by B's discretionary trust. Of you could leave if to the 2 trusts jointly as joint tenants with 75% owned by the trustee of A's trust etc.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Terryw,

    May I be a beneficiary of more than one trust at any given time?

    Cheers

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    of course

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of bumskinsbumskins
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    If your father hasn't created any kind of binding financial agreement, I think you need to be open to the fact that his new wife is likely to get 50+% of the assets. It will no longer be your dads assets but property of the marriage, your dad can't give away his wifes share of the assets in his will only his share.

    Similarly I would think the same case would exist for your father creating a trust and moving the assets into the trust, they are not his assets but his and his wifes assets so its possibly open to challenge if it can be proven the assets are materially his and the trustee has the ability to provide income to him via the trust deed (he is a beneficiary).

    I'm not sure why you are only considering death though, what about divorce?

    Also it will be even more lopsided if they have a child together (the wife would recieve a further portion to look after the child until 18 years of age).

    If your father recieves an inheritance that is also 50% his wifes because they share assets.

    Not to sure on Super but it could probably be challenged and if not then an offset is likely to be made from the assets in the will to give the wife a greater share.

    In regards to trust deeds, I think a lot of them are actually written quite open ended in regards to who can be a beneficiary (i.e. recieve income from the trust as directed by the trustee) e.g. Wife, Husband, Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, Child, Bruce Chan, Mary Chan, Children of Bruce & Mary Chan, you can specifically name someone or use placeholders (e.g. wife of, child of).

    In regards to your grandparents trust, my thinking would be that if there's enough other surviving beneficiaries that might prevent it from the assets inside it being challenged.

    WARNING: This information is just from random different bits and bobs I have read, I have no experience, So Go Speak to A Lawyer.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Hi Bumskins

    Good to see someone else joining in the discussion. I must disagree with most of what you say however.

    On marriage the assets of one partner do not necessarily become assets of the spouses jointly. If there is a divorce or a separation then the Family Court can make orders to transfer assets, including that of trust assets, but until then the assets are the assets of the individual under normal terms.

    A spouse would have a claim under the Family Provision sections if she is not adequately taken care of. The courts will take into account a whole heap of things including the length of hte relationship, contributions to the properties, other financial resources etc. A new spouse would probably have less of a claim, but this would increase the longer the marriage or relationship lasts.

    Divorce or separation is similar. A ex spouse wouldnt automatically get 50% of the assets. it would also depend on how long the relationship was, contributions resources of the parties, children of the relationship etc.

    I am not sure what you mean by the grandparents trust being challenged. By who?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    Were in the process of creating binding financhial agrements for the superannuation funds. Also yes they need to be updated every three years and I will be keeping ontop of that.

    "Your dad can't give away his wifes share of the assets in his will only his share"

    My understanding is that if assets are held by a trust then they are owned by
    a separate entity to the marriage itself. Members (i.e husband and wife and any children) may become beneficiaries of the trust but do not own
    the assets occording to law. The trust is under the control of people such as the appointer and trustee according to the directions as specified on the trust deed.

    Also I would like you to find me something that says he cant give me any specified portion of the wealth if he so pleases. As long as that is what he specifies in the will, then that is what the executor is supposed to authorise.
    The wife may oppose and she may be able to apply to the courts for a greater portion, but she is not entitled to 50% by defult if the will specifies an alternative.
    We had a prenuptial aggrement organised on the day of the wedding which specifies in the event of divorce the new wife leaves with exactly what she entered in the marriage with. If my father receives an inheritance passed down via a trust it is not actually his wealth occording to law. It is the wealth owned by the trustee of the trust. In which case the members of the trust control it and its distributions to the relevant beneficiaries (could include the wife). If they have more children well then we will have to take that as it comes. Perhaps any new child/ren would become part of the future trust structure and be beneficiaries.

    Terryw. do you know if there is any binding financhial terms that exist in terms of wills and assets held outside of a trust ? or is a request in a will equivalent to a binding nomination?

    Also If anything im saying you think is incorrect please let me know! :)  

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Ishtvan

    Trust assets can be deemed assets of the marriage. There are heaps of cases on this area. Austlii is down at the moment, so I cannot look up the Family Law Act, but there are sections which give courts the power to make an order on trustees. The trust income can also be considered a financial resource of one of the parties too.

    Wills are binding, but they can be challenged. The only way to make a will very strong from challenge is to make adequate provision for all parties that may be able to make a change. Also make sure there is no question about the will such as testamentary capacity at the time of making, leaving all assets in the will (forgetting someone may lead to partial intestacy), having it witnessed properly etc. This is why you need a lawyer to draft it.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Istvan051Istvan051
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    @istvan051
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    When drafting a will, would all lawyers include all of what you said they should by defult? The solicitors we are going to use to create it are professionals. Otherwise I will take your notes to the meeting when we organise a meeting between the three of us in order to draft the will.  What is testamentary capacity? Partial intentacy?
    I know typically two witnesses are needed for a binding nomination form (and I suppose a will also ).

    When you say "forgetting someone", you do mean forgetting some assets in the will? In which case partial intentacy occurs

    Right now im making a list of all assets I know of to make sure they are mentioned…

    Btw lawyer is american, we should get in the habit of saying solicitor

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Not all lawyers know how to draft wills. Most lawyers will not have a clue. Some do not even study Succession in their degrees as it is optional. One of my friends died of cancer recently. He got his solicitor to draft the will knowing he was dying and she made at least 9 errors which could have had devastating consequences. Another friend with a huge estate and $2mil in super went to a so called will expert. I told him about binding nominations for super and the guy included super in the will with no nomination talked about her signed.

    testamentary capacity is the capacity to do a will. There is a whole heap of issues here. If someone doesn't have it, then the will will be invalid. It often comes into question with elderly people who may not have anything wrong with them, but some relative will claim they didn't have capacity when they changed their will etc.

    Intestacy is dying without a will. If something is forgotten, and is not covered by any other clause then there will be a partial intestacy. This is why a residiary clause should be included. eg the remainder goes to uncle John Smith.

    If someone is forgotten, or not forgotten but not included, then that person may have  stronger claim if they are an eligible person under the family provision sections.

    Wills generally require 2 adult witnesses who are not beneficiaries who witness the testator signing and sign in the presence of each other.

    I think you will find a lawyer means a legal practitioner including solicitors and barristers. see the Legal Professional Act and you will find it is used in Australia too.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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