All Topics / Legal & Accounting / Companys and Trusts. Tips for newbies

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  • Profile photo of Wal 88Wal 88
    Member
    @wal-88
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 6

    Hi All

    I am new here I have posted a few times but this is my first real question.

    I am only young (22) at this stage not married, no debt and have saved up $50,000 to start investing in property.

    I intend starting off doing cosmetic renos in a rent reno sell strategy to help grow capital for 2-3 years once I have this strategy down pat and a reasonable amount of capital I intend progressing to a buy reno hold +CF strategy hopefully in about 5-6 years time aiming to rapidly grow my portfolio so I will have amassed enough equity and +CF that I can then transition into property development and subdivision projects which is where my main interest lies.

    my current salary is $60,000 – $70,000 P/A before tax I have roughly $12,000 worth of shares and some extra savings also.

    my question is, in regards to both short term and long term tax minimisation along with asset protection and ease of asset management am I best to

    1. Set up a single company with myself as sole director then buy assets under a trust with company as trustee.

    2. Set up a company with my brother and sister as joint directors and then each buy assets in separate trusts that we each manage separately but be able to take advantage of our joint incomes for lending power with the banks when taking out loans in the company name.

    Is there another structure that I have blatantly overlooked which would be easer and more user friendly both short and long term.

    I have seen examples using multiple company’s paying each other while assets held in trust but all with the same director it looked complicated and a bit dodgy but they were claiming very little or no tax having to be paid on profits. Like I said sounded and looked a bit dodgy but might work.

    At this stage I think I will be looking at a discretionary trust or a employee benefits fund ( special purpose trust) as then I as the trustee can distribute funds easier than in a family trust or other trust structures?

    Is this correct or have I missed something regarding trusts.

    That is all for now I am sure I will have more questions after you all respond

    I would also like to add that I do intend to see a accountant / financial adviser and a solicitor who have experience with these things in the near future and have been in contact with a few already but I like to have a good idea of how things work before I just take someone’s word for it.

    Thank you in advance

    Wal

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    I would be wary of having more than 1 director of a company – there is no need and it creates unnecessary risk.

    I think the best structure is a discretionary trust and having a company has trustee will help reduce the risk and to make it flexible. If you need a further income to assist borrowing then one of the siblings could go guarantor to the loan without taking the risk of being director – remember if something happens the director usually goes down with the company, and also guarantors to a lessor extent.

    I am not sure on what you mean by an employee benefit fund – could you expand on this a bit more?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Wal 88Wal 88
    Member
    @wal-88
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 6

    thanks terryw

    i thought that might have been the case.

    employee benifits fund/special purpose fund is some thing that i have seen ian daily talk about as far as i know it is just a trust with the employees of the company named as benificarys.

    for all us newbies can you please also explain the cons of this company/ trust structure. everyone always seems to spruke the pros but never the cons.

    wal

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Companies are governed by the Corporations Act. It is a long act and there are heaps of rules surrounding companies so it is a big responsibility in being a director and running a company – even if you are the only share holders. The company is a separate legal entity and you must keep its assets separate and shouldn't use them as if they are your own or you could be breaching various director duties or other laws.  So there is much more complexity in running a company than buying something in your own name.

    A trust is not a separate legal entity, but a kind of relationship. It is the trustee that is the legal entity and this can be a company or a person (or both). It is the trustee that owns the assets and enters into contracts etc. Trusts are governed by State laws and the common law. Trustees also have many dutites – to act in the best interest of the beneficiaries etc. If you have a company as trustee you will be governed by these laws and the corporations laws and so it is even more complex.

    Then there is the complexity of Tax laws surrounding companies and trusts. These are especially complex and few accountants have good understandings.

    The rules surrounding land tax are also complex and confusing and differ from state to state.

    For tax purposes trusts are treated as separate entities as are companies, so if your trust has a loss you cannot use this to offset personal income as the two are unrelated. This can create problems if you are buying a negative geared property – you probably cannot save tax and so it will cost you more initially. Your trust may also need to make a family trust election to carry forward the loss and this may restrict the beneficiaries in the future.

    Accounting fees will increase because of the complexity and you may need trust deeds updated every few years as well you may need legal advice every now and then to make sure something you want to do is permissible so it can be costly.

    There are also clawback provisions and other provisions in the bankruptcy act which few understand or realise that this can invalidate many of the asset protection aspects promoted. 

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Wal 88Wal 88
    Member
    @wal-88
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 6

    thanks terryw

    wow sounds to me like alot of extra work for very little benifit seeing as i like many others will have very little or no +CF in the early years thanks for the info.

    Profile photo of toniinfantetoniinfante
    Member
    @toniinfante
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 5

    If you guys invest with a company does that mean that you will have to charge GST on each deal??

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    Wal 88 wrote:
    thanks terryw

    wow sounds to me like alot of extra work for very little benifit seeing as i like many others will have very little or no +CF in the early years thanks for the info.

    What about the later years?

    I remember I had a mate who had a wife that wasn't working. He was on the top rate and wanted to buy a property in Perth – i told him to use a discretionary trust, but he wanted to save tax.

    About 2 years passed and he sold the property for about $200,000 more than he paid. Wife was still on nil income and he had $100,000 capital gain assessed at the top rate.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    toniinfante wrote:

    If you guys invest with a company does that mean that you will have to charge GST on each deal??

    GST doesn't really depend on the type of entity. A company or an individual can register for GST. Also, there is no GST on residential property – unless it is new.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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