All Topics / Finance / LOC for maintainence and repayment surplus

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  • Profile photo of cmasoncmason
    Participant
    @cmason
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 53

    Hi
    We are looking at buying our 3rd investment property soon and I have a couple of questions regarding LOC and cross collateralisation.

    Was listening to a investment seminar and he was talking about a strategy where the LOC is not only used for a deposit for a new IP but from what I could gather he was suggesting to use the LOC for other rental property expenses such as maintainence and loan repayment difference after rent. Wondering firstly if I understood this correctly and if it is a good strategy also if the interest on this LOC would be tax deductable.

    Have read a few examples on cross collateralisation on this forum and I am still a bit unsure as to if that is how our investment loans are structured.

    Last year we had 1 IP which was valued at $250K with a loan of $122K we took out a LOC of $25K for a deposit on the 2nd IP. We bought a 2nd IP for $160K refinancing the first IP loan for $122K and creating a new loan for the 2nd IP of $185K(including the LOC rolled in, maybe a mistake now as I didn't quite understand the purpose of the LOC and didn't want it hanging around) in the end 80% LVR to avoid LMI

    So we have 2 separate loans does that mean they are not cross collateralised or is it more complex than that as to whether the first IP was used as security for the 2nd loan.

    confusing, Thanks for any light that can be shed

    Profile photo of karen.karen.
    Member
    @karen.
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 196

    in regards to the LOC i was just reading an article about this in the new API i just got in the mail.  so maybe grab an issue to read.

    it stated that the LOC interest is tax deductible.  and supported the use of these loans to pay for those other IP expenses.  i had never thought of using them that way and im so glad that was brought to my attention cos it would really help us move further with our investing.

    we were wanting to purchase another 2 renovation IPs, hold them for only a year, then sell.  we have cashflow issues which we are trying to rectify so we are wanting to build up a cash surplus to help us move onto bigger and brighter things (hopefully these two renovation projects will help us get some savings).  if we can set up LOCs on these two properties after we have done the renovations it would help us service the loans up until they sell after 12 months.  not sure if itd all work out cos i only just read it this morning but its certainly something we were gonna look into more over the coming couple of months.

    Profile photo of cmasoncmason
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    @cmason
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 53

    Thanks karen will buy the API and have a look

    Have been doing a little bit more reading of threads on this forum and it seems our loans are cross collaterallised as recommended by our Mortgage broker to reduce the LVR to 80% and avoid LMI

    My question now is what is the alternative to this and if we want to buy another IP are we going to have problems?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    The LOC method is an excellent approach. Why use your cash for investment expenses when you could be using this to pay down your home loan and saving non deductible debt.

    But you will need to be careful how you set this up, especially if you are paying interest by borrowing from a LOC. If you don't take care you could be entering a scheme with the dominant purpose of saving tax – and the ATO could disallow it under part IVA of the tax act.

    Do a search for Hart's case. Hart v FCT.

    As for cross collateralising loans – I think you should avoid it. Look at your mortgage documents and see if the security listed is one property or two. if it is two then = crossed.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of cmasoncmason
    Participant
    @cmason
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 53

    Thanks Terry

    My thinking would be that rent would be piad into the LOC and interest payments from our Interest only investment loan would also be taken from the LOC. Might have to read a bit more about the concept, would like to see if I could use the same LOC for multiple investments.

    Starting to undestand this cross collateralising more, my concern is we would like to start preparing to buy another IP if our current 2 investment loans are cross collateralised at 80% LVR and we wanted to create an LOC for a deposit on a new IP would that mean we would need to pay LMI on the current loans or would we just not be able to create the LOC because of the cross.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Why pay rent into the LOC – have it paid directly into your 100% offset account attached to your home loan. Save non deductible interest first or you will end up paying more tax.

    Best to try to limit your LVR to 80% I think. any higher is very risky, especially these days. If you do want to go higher you can set up a LOC on each property. If you keep crossing it will only get messier and harder to unravel later on.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of cmasoncmason
    Participant
    @cmason
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 53

    Thanks Terry for your advice. At first we didn't quite understand too much about cross colaterallising so certainly will not be crossing anymore just hope we can sort out what we have at the moment to allow us to proceed with obtaining our next IP.

    Thanks for the idea regarding the offset. Our lender doesn't have an offset as such but the y have unlimited free redraw/additional payment facility which acts as an offset so will definitely be looking to put our rent and other spare funds in here

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    whoa – beware!!! The redraw is totally different from the offset account. Some lenders say they are the same but there are serious tax consequences. This may not make a difference immediately, but if you were to ever move out of your current house to rent it you may, or will, pay more tax.

    Basically when you deposit money into a loan it is a repayment. When you take it out again it is new borrowings. Having an offset avoids this problem.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of cmasoncmason
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    @cmason
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 53

    OK, we plan on living in this house for the next 20 odd years(until the kids leave) and hopefully will pay the loan off within 10-12 years(quicker the better) and have no plans in renting it out, will it still be a problem?

    My lender had this on thier website:

    • An offset account is a feature of some mortgages. It is a savings account attached to the mortgage, with the balance used to offset the interest charged on your loan.
    • Some lenders, such as <lender>, have a free redraw and additional repayment facility on their variable rate loans which have the same benefits as an offset account. Deposits can be banked into your loan account and the loan interest is calculated on the daily loan balance (after the deposit) but the extra funds are classed as available redraws.
    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    What they have said is correct, but not totally true in regards to having the same benefits.

    I guess no harm will come if you never intend to move out and rent the place – what ever you do, don't use this method with an investment property or you could end up with a large loan but not able to claim any of the interest.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of heathersheathers
    Member
    @heathers
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 26

    Terry can you please clarify this for me.
    I was under the impression that using funds from an LOC for another property doesn’t mean they are crossed.
    Crossed is when you use some of the equity to bump up LVR on new property.
    Is this correct?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Yep.

    Crossed collateralised means there is more than one property being used as collateral.

    So if you had property A securing loan 1 and then get a LOC Loan 2 on the extra equity in Property A. Then you go out and find property B, borrow 80% of this with a bank, loan 3. This loan would only be secured by property B. The 20% deposit would come from loan 2, the LOC. So each property would be stand alone and not crossed.

    But you have to be careful as some bankers will put down property A as additional security for loan 3. Some won't even ask they will just do it and then you get the documents with settlement due in days time and its too late to change often. So you need to be careful when applying and specify which property will be used as security for which loan.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of heathersheathers
    Member
    @heathers
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 26

    Thanks for that ! *Running out door to check loan contracts!*

    Profile photo of cuteyoungchiccuteyoungchic
    Participant
    @cuteyoungchic
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 66

    Good morning everyone :)
    Please someone enlighten me on what LOC, also API are, and where I might acquire copies of API?
    Thanks, enjoy your day!
    Cheers,
    Liz

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Line of Credit
    Australian Property Investor magazine – from any newsagent.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of amsaini15amsaini15
    Participant
    @amsaini15
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 64
    cmason wrote:
    My lender had this on thier website:

    • An offset account is a feature of some mortgages. It is a savings account attached to the mortgage, with the balance used to offset the interest charged on your loan.
    • Some lenders, such as <lender>, have a free redraw and additional repayment facility on their variable rate loans which have the same benefits as an offset account. Deposits can be banked into your loan account and the loan interest is calculated on the daily loan balance (after the deposit) but the extra funds are classed as available redraws.

    I am with the same lender and even their product Fact sheet says:

    Features:
    Unlimited redraws   Yes
    Additional repayments  Yes
    Offset   Yes (100% offset facility built into loan account)

    I will probably clarify with them to make sure its real offset facility.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    if its built in then i doubt it. That is really false and misleading. Someone could get into a situation where by they end up paying more tax because of this.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of CatalystCatalyst
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    @catalyst
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 1,404
    cmason wrote:
    OK, we plan on living in this house for the next 20 odd years(until the kids leave) and hopefully will pay the loan off within 10-12 years(quicker the better) and have no plans in renting it out, will it still be a problem?

    So when the kids leave home you will definitely sell it?  Maybe not. So you will have a fully paid off house that you want to keep but not live in. If you rent it out you will have no interest to deduct. But you will have a non tax deductable loan on the new smaller home you will move into. (just giving alternatives here).
    If you have an offset account your mortgage is still in effect getting down to zero but the difference is the money is yours to do what you want with it (maybe buy that new home and rent this one out with tax deducxtions/ have a holiday -whatever. It just keeps your options open.
    I like having options.

    Profile photo of AM2778AM2778
    Participant
    @am2778
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 48

    I have a question:

    1) I took out a seperate loan (as an Equity Release) from PPOR. I usesd some of the funds for Personal Stuff – Debt consolidation, PPOR Renos, etc.

    2) I have refilled the funds so that the whole amount of Equity is available

    3) I intend to use the funds from the Equity Release, to put in a deposit for the an IP Purchase.

    Can this be done. Would the ATO allow the deductions ??

    cheers
    AM 

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    You should be right I think as you have fully repaid the funds borrowed for personal use. So when you borrow for investment purposes 100% of the outstanding balance will be for investment.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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