All Topics / General Property / No Housing Bubble in Australia…is there?

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  • Profile photo of WynyardWynyard
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    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    Many thanks to the creator of that page 'Dan'. He is obviously an expert on the words bubble and craziness. My favorite line is "Kangaroos cannot save us from basic economics." No I guess they cannot.

    I am completely bored with the idea that 'the bubble" may burst any day now and million dollar mansions will be worth $50.

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    mattnz
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    Here is an article in which the chief economist at BNZ, fully owned by NAB advise that they recognised the NZ market was 30% overvalued in 2008 when the ratio of house price to wages were at a multiple of 6 in NZ.

    In Australia they are much higher now, Sydney has a multiple of 9 and Melbourne 8. You have to wonder what NAB's economists are saying behind closed doors about how overvalued the Australian market is. If NZ was 30% overvalued at 6 times, Australia must be 30-50% overvalued by the same measure at around 8 times wages.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10705683

    "The BNZ reckoned in early 2008 that house prices, then averaging about six times average disposable incomes, were overvalued by about 30 per cent. By now about half that overvaluation has been relieved, Ebert said, through declines in house prices and a "reasonable" increase in disposable incomes."

    Profile photo of luke86luke86
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    mattnz wrote:
    In Australia they are much higher now, Sydney has a multiple of 9 and Melbourne 8. You have to wonder what NAB's economists are saying behind closed doors about how overvalued the Australian market is. I

    They are still lending 95% LVR for Australian property so they musnt be too worried.

    mattnz
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    The whole purpose of LMI is to protect the banks. They are covered for the first 20% of any losses by the insurer. In NABs case this is Genworth Financial. It isn’t a bank decision, but the LMI provider. They need to keep receiving premiums to stay afloat and cover their costs, so they keep offering insurance.

    It raises an interesting point though. The mortgage insurers are only set up to cover a few defaults, not for a market collapse. While the banks assume they are covered in such an event, I would be surprised if the LMI providers survived a significant drop in house prices. If the LMI providers collapse, the banks which have relied on insurance to bail them out of trouble in their risk modelling, will also face serious unforeseen issues.

    Profile photo of luke86luke86
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    LMI protects the banks to a point, It doesn't help them a great deal if someone defaults on a mortgage and then goes bankrupt. They still carry plenty of risk even with LMI.

    mattnz
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    Just looking at Genworth’s financial position and exposure.

    In 2008 their share price dropped from ~$35 to $1.12 due to their exposure to the US housing market. The scary thing is their exposure to the Australian market is far larger and any significant drop here would almost certainly cause insolvency.

    Of their 3.8 million LMI policies internationally, 1.4 million are in Australia compared with 1 million in USA. Given the much higher house prices in Australia, the dollar value exposure would have to be at least twice that of USA.

    Profile photo of god_of_moneygod_of_money
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    http://www.smh.com.au/business/housing-finance-grows-faster-than-expected-20110214-1assa.html

    Housing finance grows faster than expected

    No space for comments @ smh… surprise surpise.. housing finance is collapsing, credit crisis, affordability, price to income ratio…etc…where are all the gurus of economics??
    Infact.. the housing finance is keep going up and up and up….. 4.8% increase in Sydney.. :)

    Profile photo of god_of_moneygod_of_money
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    Auction clearance in Sydney ~70% this weekend… up from December 50%… but there is NO BIG NEWS…
    if auction clearance dropped to <50%… Doom and Loom… starting from Fairfax again..
    No wonder.. Fairfax FXJ… tanked for the last 3 years time… (lucky didn't buy any FXJ shares)

    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    mattnz
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    The AV Jennings release is particularly interesting. I often see the media accusing developers of land banking. It is the first time I have seen them defining this as a strategy. There is definitely something wrong with the model when a business strategy is based on having 5 YEARS of inventory!!!

    In any other business in any industry, having a stockpile of 5 years of inventory would be a surefire way to go broke due to its cashflow implications. Certainly not a just-in-time inventory system and not a sustainable business model.

    It is no wonder that land prices are very high, all the key players buy up all the available land in the areas which are being rezoned and limit the amount for sale. It is similar to how oil cartels worked in the 1970’s to force oil prices up by 300%+.

    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    It's pretty dirty. Plus add the fact that state govts are sitting on massive amounts of land ($450mil estimated in Vic) and of course house prices will rise.

    There are a lot of people, companies, govts, banks etc with a lot to lose if prices drop. All these people will do whatever they can to ensure that the prices stay high.

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    Profile photo of steve edmondssteve edmonds
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    mattnz wrote:
    The AV Jennings release is particularly interesting. I often see the media accusing developers of land banking. It is the first time I have seen them defining this as a strategy. There is definitely something wrong with the model when a business strategy is based on having 5 YEARS of inventory!!! In any other business in any industry, having a stockpile of 5 years of inventory would be a surefire way to go broke due to its cashflow implications. Certainly not a just-in-time inventory system and not a sustainable business model. It is no wonder that land prices are very high, all the key players buy up all the available land in the areas which are being rezoned and limit the amount for sale. It is similar to how oil cartels worked in the 1970's to force oil prices up by 300%+.

    Land Development is nothing like others businesses that can easily control inventory. A car manufacturer can stockpile steel in a just in time manner. A volume builder cannot. Land is a scarce resource. You have to buy it englobo, rezone it, get development approval and then produce the lead in works(roads sewer etc) This can take 5 years plus! You must have this avialble stock to enable a clear production line of houses. Otherwise you would be putting off your builders every year and have a lumpy profit and loss without sufficient cashflow. So this is why a 5 year land bank would give me confidence in a volume building company compared to one who had none!

    Regards

    Steve

    Profile photo of AussieHousePricesAussieHousePrices
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    Hi All,

    If you’re not yet tired of reading about the Aussie Housing Bubble, check out my new blog:

    http://aussiehouseprices.blogspot.com/

    Cheers.
    Andy.

    Profile photo of Dan42Dan42
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    mattnz wrote:
    Here is an article in which the chief economist at BNZ, fully owned by NAB advise that they recognised the NZ market was 30% overvalued in 2008 when the ratio of house price to wages were at a multiple of 6 in NZ.

    In Australia they are much higher now, Sydney has a multiple of 9 and Melbourne 8.

    House price to average (or median) wage is a useless statistic that means nothing. It looks good in scary newspaper articles, but that's about all the good it does. If you are going to argue house prices are too high, then go right ahead, but don't waste our time or insult our intelligence with 'house price to wage' rubbish.

    Thanks.

    Profile photo of Dan42Dan42
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    AussieHousePrices wrote:
    Hi All, If you’re not yet tired of reading about the Aussie Housing Bubble, check out my new blog: http://aussiehouseprices.blogspot.com/ Cheers. Andy.

    Great first post Andy, plugging your own website without adding anything to the conversation. (Please note the sarcasm).

    Please forgive me if I won't be clicking on your link. The thought of reading about the 'impending property crash', from some anonymous blogger with no discernable credentials makes me so nervous that I won't be able to sleep at night. I'll just keep my head in the sand, if that's ok with you.

    By the way, this 'impending crash' has been impending now for at least three years. Any chance you may be able to narrow down the date for me, so I can sell up and get some sleep?

    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    Aww Dan, missed you on here ;).

    I read Andy's blog and it was well put together with excellent points. Pity it was a rehash of what many, many others had written before. In fact, it really seemed a lot like articles I have already read. Also the comments by all his bear buddies beggared belief, when you're glad you haven't bought property so that you can have a great life…..

    The date was narrowed down for us in another thread! Oct 09 crash…..!

    Oh….. no wait, it didn't happen. Ooops.

    2011. We are seeing 95% loans back, banks are advertising on billboards and tv to get customers. Slight lull here in Vic until July when the stamp duty cut comes in. After that Melbourne will be a joke.

    I have to find my previous post where I put it out there that the median house price will become well and truly over $500k and no one will bat an eyelid.

    My first home buyer brother and GF are scrambling to buy in now. Imagine what will happen in July.

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    Profile photo of AussieHousePricesAussieHousePrices
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    Dan42 wrote:
    AussieHousePrices wrote:
    Hi All, If you’re not yet tired of reading about the Aussie Housing Bubble, check out my new blog: http://aussiehouseprices.blogspot.com/ Cheers. Andy.

    Great first post Andy, plugging your own website without adding anything to the conversation. (Please note the sarcasm).

    Please forgive me if I won't be clicking on your link. The thought of reading about the 'impending property crash', from some anonymous blogger with no discernable credentials makes me so nervous that I won't be able to sleep at night. I'll just keep my head in the sand, if that's ok with you.

    By the way, this 'impending crash' has been impending now for at least three years. Any chance you may be able to narrow down the date for me, so I can sell up and get some sleep?

    Fair call Dan42 – that was a fairly abrubt entry into the conversation.  Regarding your request to narrow down the date, my guess is as good as anyones.  But if I had to guess, I'd say the peak was June last year and that we'll have falls of 40%+ over the next 7 years. 

    Profile photo of AussieHousePricesAussieHousePrices
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    DWolfe wrote:
    I read Andy's blog and it was well put together with excellent points. Pity it was a rehash of what many, many others had written before. In fact, it really seemed a lot like articles I have already read. Also the comments by all his bear buddies beggared belief, when you're glad you haven't bought property so that you can have a great life…..

    Thanks for the feedback DWolfe.  Can you point me to sites that are saying the same thing – it sounds like I'd like them :)

    Profile photo of beediebeedie
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    Yawn…….

    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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