Is it common practice for councils to have double standards? We've submitted our application for building two properties on a vacant block of land, and it seems that the issues they're raising with us are also similar issues other applicants have had in the past. This is evident from how they've constructed their dwellings in relation to the issues around the site. We have similar problems. Yet those owners seem to have "gotten away" with it and made a compromise with council, and we seem to be getting the short end of the stick.
To top it off, our builder appears to be clueless with regards to our plans and what needs to be changed to suit council (and, of course, make us happy!) It appears he's more willing to satisfy council than us – his clients!
Why is it that people who own the land are told how to own it when they decide to alter it?
We're 4 months into the process, and it seems as if nothing's happening yet. It's just such a slow process! Can others reassure me that it's not just me who gets frustrated with council and builders? This is our first development project, and I had higher expectations from those involved in this. Is this normal?
Hey there Shang sorry you having difficulties with the council.
Most times the council makes the rules and we remain just in side them.
If these are investment properties do not get emotionally attached because this can create more unecessary costs.
You need to build them as quick as you can to maxiumise your funding.
I know its hard not to be personal but thats where money is made or lost on bricks and motar.
4 months must be with the town planners ? His the builder sorting all this out,? his the builder a project builder?Hi dougiebuilder,
It's 4 months since the signing of the contract, soil reports, etc. So while there is some progress, the actual building is yet to commence.
One property will be an IP, the other will be a PPOR. We want to get both of them right. We're also considering the plans from a purchaser's perspective – will a new buyer be willing to pay for what we'll be offering.
The builder is a reputable company in SA, but the person who's handling this seems to be giving us the run-around. I think he's looking at making council happy, not us, so everything can commence and he can get paid. While we want to get things started ASAP, we don't want the houses to look like caves just so we can finalise everything.
yes Shang
that s a long time from contract stage. Should be finished by now. 2 houses side by side,, SA must be different from brisbane.
You must have a meeting with the builder to ask what delays that is holding up the works.
And why the delays.
The delays are because of council. First they said this, then they're saying that. What they're saying now is not what they brought up previously, etc. Bit of a mess unfortunately. Other reason for the delays is the builder keeps changing the plans to suit them, and we're not happy.
Anyone willing to share their experiences?
Did you sign off on each of the plans I mean signature each page saying that is what your contract is for ? That is what you are building.
Tell them you are going somewhere else, are they really reputable?
4 months does seem like a long time – councils usually have maximum times for aprovals but if there are issues with the application they stop the clock.
Personally, I find some councils are more helfpul/flexible than others, as are some Planning Officers. We had a situation recently where the Senior Planning Officer retired midway through our planning approval process and the 'new' (promoted) Senior Planning Officer approaches the role very differently and also tries to dictate what 'they' want – even on things that go outside the planning scheme. I had to jump through many hoops that I wasn't expecting and had to flexible and yield to some of their requests otherwise we'd still be in the planning stage. The rules and regulations seem to be getting tougher all the time and there certainly seems to be double standards in how some rules are applied.
My suggestion would be to know the planning scheme inside out yourself and also understand the acceptable solutions where it is a challenge to comply with either planning or building requirements. I'd also consider speaking to the manager of the department in the council that you feel is not treating you fairly (although sometimes this can work against you if not handled tactfully).
I'd also consider changing builder – if you are already having difficulties with them now, what will it be like once you are in the build stage? It may be better to take the pain now and change to a builder who wants to work with you rather than find the situation unworkable and change mid way through as most builders are not too keen to take on someone's project once construction has commenced.
I hope these suggestions might be of some assistance. Good luck.
The contract's been signed, so we can't just up and leave. The final plans are still up in the air, as council still need to OK them. This is what's annoying – will council be living in the houses or the owners?!
Builder's saying "I told you so" that plans are subject to change pending council approval. In other words – listen to council so your plans can be approved, and we're changing your plans because they have their own requests.
Hi Tracey B,
Thanks for your input as well. You're right with what you've said, but the contract's already been signed (unfortunately for us now). I suspect it's more the individual we're dealing with rather than the actual company he's working for, but I'm also trying to deal with council members directly, and not just take the builder's word for it. They seem to have a problem with the concept of returning people's phone calls, though. Very, very difficult to deal with!
The actual application has been with council for 6 weeks now, 2 of which were spent trying to iron out the issues they have with our proposal. No one from council seems to want to speed things up. I think some people there only work on a casual or part-time basis, making things like this very difficult for your average developer.
How frustrating for you. The emotional energy that goes into this, especially when PPOR is involved, is enormous, not to mention the financial pain with the delays and the sleep deprivation from going over and over it in your head through the night. Another suggestion that you may have already tried – would be worth having a meeting with builders, yourself and the council to try to find a solution that works for everyone (especially you)?
Hi Shangrila,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I can't tell you about the builders role but I can tell you a bit about council. I have just completed a value add IP and it ran 15 months over due to council. We did the whole sit down with the councils town planners, took their advice 100% (even though it already complied with all the planning codes), reviewed it twice just to make sure the ammendments were to their satisfaction, they dragged their feet for 9 months only to reject the application! I was furious because I did everyhting they asked!!! After that they would not negotiate to get it through so we had to go to arbitration – which we won. This took an extra 4 months becuase it fell across the Christmas break. VCAT asked for two things: a Garden Plan and window screens. We submitted the revised plans only to have council reject it again! They didnt like the type of window screens we used. So … that's just life with councils. Thank goodness I had plenty of fat in the deal to still come out in front … phew!
Andrew
itsandrew
Go as far as you can see and you will see further.
Hi Andrew,
That's an absurd story! I thought our situation was bad, but there's always someone out there slightly worse off than you think you are.
I wonder why councils are so difficult? Considering people are actually doing them a good deed – creating multiple lots and doubling, tripling, etc. the council rates they get from what was once one block of land. I'm all for following rules and having certain standards for new buildings, but mostly I think it's over-regulating just so they can keep their comfy jobs going!
It's a painfully slow process to build a new property, and while I'd like to do it again, I shudder at the thought I'll have to repeat this. It all depends on the council, yes, but the process itself is harder than what it should be. Probably best thing one should be on the lookout for are reno projects or vacant land with already approved plans.
Might post an update in the future… if we come out of this in tact.
Thanks for all the replies.
I hope the following advice is received as intended.
If you need a planning outcome, then find a planner, architect or designer who can get the DA/TPP you require.
A good one will be able to help you manage the relationship with your builder as well.Hope it works out.
Why don't you make an appointment with the Council planner who is looking after your file? Talk through all the issues and make a list of the information they still need. That way you can know exactly what is happening. Yes, it's a hassle but it could save you months of delay.
I agree with christianb. In my experience some designers, builders etc do not understand the planning process, therefore struggle to manage it effectively. Having said that, I am also aware that many Councils planners have too much on, so delays can occur just due to workload issues. If this is the main issue then if you try to organise a meeting with the planner they may be reluctant. As the owner you can change who the Council communicates with (in Victoria anyway), so if you think the process isn't being handled right maybe you should make yourself the contact so that you are in control!
Also, as for time issues. I have done work for several councils in Melbourne and multi unit developments can take much longer than people anticipate. If there are issues, objections etc 12-18 months until a decision is unfortunately not uncommon.
Regards,
Melanie Ellis
Town Planner
http://www.achangeofplan.com.auHave taken all of your comments on board, so thank you all for that. I think a one-on-one meeting with a council planner/officer looking after our application will be the way to go, as they keep contradicting their requirements with us. I.e. If we move one of the houses, then we'll satisfy A, B & C requirement, but not D & E. But if we move it from X to Y spot, then we'll be fine with E requirement, but not B or A, and D might be compromised, etc. It's an absurd process to be going through, and I'm starting to pull my hair out!
Thanks for everyone's advice, though
We had the same issue with our council. We ended up complying and still got refused. The heartache, the years etc. is draining. We only just got ours approved but I know what you mean about one standard for one property and another standard for another proerty with council. I found ringing every week and having a one person contact in council is what pushed it through. Every couple of months a new person was assigned to our case. In the end I grabbed a name and rang them each week. Each time I rang I asked when I would hear from them again and when I could expect answers for my questions. If they did not comply with what they said or when they said they would, I went higher. Ending up with a note to the Administrators and finally approved.
Sandrat101, sorry to hear about your heartache too. It's definitely frustrating, and very time consuming. It shouldn't be this hard. We'll be looking at getting someone out to the property to inspect and see if they can give us advice on what WILL be approved, or we'll sit down with someone and discuss the issues. Going back and forth through our builder is pointless. He doesn't appear to be fully aware of what he's doing, and only seems to skim-read the letters council send. Doesn't care about the end product, as long as the houses are built and he gets his share of it.
Who were the Administrators, by the way? Were they not in council, as well? I think if we speak to the planners' bosses in council we'll get the same response, as ultimately they work together and seem to like prolonging things.
In my experience, the best town planning outcomes have been achieved by taking a cooperative and inclusive approach with council. The best method for doing this, in my opinion, is to work from concepts to final application – over a period of weeks – and taking minutes from each subsequent meeting. These minutes can then be shared with the planning department so that any meaningful decisions are recorded and agreed.
In this way, when the final application is made all of the design decisions have been discussed and agreed. It is very difficult (I would suggest impossible) for the planning department to then do a back flip because there is an information trail that shows your intentions and the cooperative approach you have taken. Without putting too fine a point on it, this information trail would also be very damning if it became a tribunal issue.
This approach has ensured a 100% success rate for me with town planning applications.
Thank you for your comments Shangrila00 and Christian B.
Shangrila00,
A great idea suggested by Christian B is to meet with council. We basically sat down with council and said tell us what we need to do to get it approved. They responded with general ideas eg. comply with section… but that was not specific enough for me and when we made the changes they came back with more – I wanted meterage, exact plants we should include etc. as everytime we made changes our architect charged us again. Basically I did not leave till they told me exactly what we needed to do and it was clear. We took our architect, town planner and solicitor with us. Not to be heavy handed but so that everyone heard the same information. It cost us $1000 to get everyone there but that is minute to the thousands we had already spent.Yes the administrators were in the building and read the documentation, however our meeting consisted of the person assigned to the file at the time, the director/head of planning only because I had gone through the process as I described above. They wouldn't meet with you unless you have followed the chain of command – well that is what we found.
Your builder sounds like a bit of a worry. Can you choose someone else?
Christian B.,
Thank you for your professional comments. We did follow the process you described, however over the 2 year period we were assigned 5 different people, so who we originally sat down with left council straight after we lodged. Then each person wanted to make their own alterations even though we seemed to comply. That is why after 3 years I followed the approach I outlined above. Hopefully next time I can work with you.Sandra
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