Hi Sash,
That is a fair time blow out. It is 150K profit which is fab but do you think that with the time it has taken with it not even approved yet that another purchase would have been better?I have just had a property settle which I intend to subdivide. If I was waiting over 18 months I would be fuming.
$21 000 for everything done end to end including design, drafting, fees etc is not a lot of money in the overall scheme of things for a development of that size/complexity. Bad advice will often cost far more.
By way of comparison someone I know recently paid (to someone else – not me) $16 000 just for the design and draft of house plans; another paid $60 000 for the design of a 12 apartment complex; another paid $240 000 for the design of a 14 unit development (the reason for this staggering figure is because the architect fit another 2 apartments onto the site, and the builder thought it was worth it. I personally think theyre on drugs. 240 grand i slappa your face). Im already out $5 000 in application fees alone for a 12x2BR 4 story complex, having done all design/draft myself.
Good luck!
Hi Sash,
It can be tough work dealing with subdivisions, one little pea under the mattress and no-one seems to be sleeping properly! It is difficult to pick up each and every part of the puzzle and put it in place in the right order. I'm glad to hear your consultant has kept the project going seemingly against the odds and I'm sure there will be lessons learned that you will value down the track should you do the same thing again.
It would be great for our industry if there was a little more certainty about the process so that time-lines could be controlled a little better. Over the past 12 months our best turn around time was just over 12 weeks for a two lot subdivision approval (in Melbourne's South East) but others are taking significantly longer. It seems that the more "advice" the municipal planners want to bring to the table, the longer things take. Many of the municipal planners are over-burdened, so if you don't have useful contacts things can just get stuck awaiting assessment and approval. Personally I favour an approach of seeking early (very early) feedback and insist – wherever possible – that the planner I first speak to is the one who assesses the proposal. In this way, I know with some certainty that the project will have municipal support and will receive approval.
Best of luck with the rest of the project.
Hi Sash,
I am in interested in how your sub division has gone now after such a long time with PnP property group?
I have been corresponding with PnP and have been quoted a price of $24,450 for them to consult with my council for subdividing my property. This does not include Town Planning Application fee, Subdivision fee or Advertising signage fee, and other additional costs. Their 5% holding deposit of $1222.50 says it has a 100% money back guarantee if their scope of my property finds that they cannot sub divide the land. This is supposed to take 7 days, then they want 45% balance of the deposit ($11,000) on me receiving the signed agreement and the final balance upon final approval for all drawings and elevations of $12,225.
I am just a little worried that being that these things take such a long time, what is to say that this company wont run off with my money and leave me high and dry??Is it better to just get an architect to draw up the plans and get the council permits for me?
Very interested to hear about your final outcome and whether PnP group is the way to go or not?
I spoke to PnP but ended up paying a local drafting company $5500 for this same service. I have found the service of the drafting company to be excellent and I also have a direct dialogue with the Town Planner they use. The draftsman runs the process, but I have also had direct meetings with the Town Planner whenever I wanted. My project and draftsmen are in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne.
Before using this Drafting company I engaged a different (local) company who were about the same price but impossibly slow to the verge of incompetence. I sacked this company and lost a $500 deposit and a few months of time.
PnP’s service sounded very comprehensive and might be good for people who want little or no involvement. Personally, I like the hands-on involvement.
Just my 2c’s worth…
Scott.
Hi Sash,
Subdivision on your own can be tough, so finding a company that does everything from beginning to end was definitely a good move so you had a fixed price. It seems like they have a very comprehensive service, can you post up the costs broken down?
The surveying / town planning / engineering / drafting part of a 2-lot subdivision should be around the $14k mark beginning to end, but this does depend on the people you engage and the quality of work you’re paying for. Council fees are fairly consistent across the board, so it all comes down to what companies you engage in your project.
Hands-on involvement does save money, but you need to factor in the amount of time you’re willing to invest into the project and consider if it really is worth it. In the overall scheme of things, a few thousand extra to save you the hassle isn’t a big chunk of the potential returns from the subdivision.
Cheers,
Ashley StaceyI'd agree with Ashley that when it comes to subdividing, it may be better to get help with it rather than doing it all yourself. You may save money doing it all yourself, but there's the time and energy you'll waste and the learning curve you have to overcome.
If you want to do subdividing on a regular basis and make money from it ongoingly, then fine, you can learn to do it. But if it's only a one-off thing, then getting help may be better.
In my opinion, property subdivision is no more or less difficult than say rebuilding an engine.
I am no good at fixing engines, nor do I have any experience fixing engines.
If I had all of the manuals and instructions, along with all of the necessary tools and I could afford the time and money involved in perhaps getting a few bits bolted in wrong way around, then I would have a go at that engine rebuild.
In subdividing property I have a team I work with to minimise the risk that things might get bolted together the wrong way around. I also have a set of instructions and a manual (a process) to ensure things are done in the right order.
The costs are important (as ever) but in subdividing property the early advice is crucial. Arriving at the best outcome for your proposal will make more profit than all of the best consulting advice will cost you.
So you are able to go to a draftsman to do the majority and he consults a town planner when required?
fredo_4305 wrote:So you are able to go to a draftsman to do the majority and he consults a town planner when required?It may work better the other way around.
Go to either a town planner or a designer experienced in town planning first, and establish the strategy (and so the brief) for the project and then engage a draughtsman.
I am a Town Planner, who has recently begun a small consulting company with a friend who is a designer.
Over the years i have dealt with a number of consultancy's when working in Council's and one of which is property subdivision.
I must admit im shocked that they charge that much. I have wouldnt say they are the worst company i have dealt with, but in saying that i wouldnt be paying those prices, particularly when to my knowledge they do not even have a qualified town planner working with them.I understand that having a good team around you is the draw card with this company, however i know a number of draftsman and consultance who would charge a third of that price and achieve the same if not a better outcome.
Following this with interest as I have had a couple of meetings with PnP and feel that their returns and process seems too good to be true. Returns of $100k+ net after all expenses, it just doesn't make sense to me – yes I am skeptical about dropping $25k with such promises. The 3 hour sales pitch left more questions than answers.
Sash – very keen to how your PnP experience has gone and would you use them again, or have you learnt enough along the way to engage some professionals and manage the process yourself?
Hi zem100.
Are you considering using PnP to get them to
1). subdivide an existing property backyard that you already own or
2). are/were you considering getting PnP to source the site (old house on a big block) for you as well ?
If its is scenario 2). …….. did you understand by the end of the 3hr sales pitch seminar that the only money that PnP make is $25k & is the $25k fee for just finding the site or does all of the $25k go towards providing all of the expertise to conduct the subdiv process for you ?
Therefore what are the total fees that PnP make from the service that they do in scenario 2). ?
Hi all!!
Long time reader (of this post) first time poster. Thanks for sharing all your stories and advice. I'm much like Sash in that I'm not at all experienced in property development, but would like to use the cash I do have to make a bit more rather than be tied down to the same mortgage for 30+ years!!
Sash- how's the process with PnP Property Group (Property Subdivision) going?? I went to one of their info sessions recently and am considering working with them but would appreciate an update and final outcomes (if you have them) on your project. Or from others who have worked with them….
Look forward to hearing from you!!
cheers!
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