All Topics / Finance / INTEREST ONLY OR P&i

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  • Profile photo of MiccaladyMiccalady
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    @miccalady
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 23

    Hi all,

    Just wanting to get others' perspective on whether to go the I/O or P & I for investments.  I have been told never put money from your own pocket into an investment and recently my broker said – Don't accumulate debt that you cannot pay off in your lifetime.  Is it a wast of money to pay P&I as I see the benefit of reducing debt as a positive thing…..just like to hear what others think.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Do u have non deductible debt? if so you would be crazy to use PI on an investment

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    @dwolfe
    Join Date: 2009
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    But isn't this a way to eventually turn a neg geared ip into + geared? (If you should by any chance have such an evil creature in your portfolio ) Also a dollar in a mortgage now means u save 10 later on and can access more equity too meaning you can use your money twice. Hey feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    You are correct, but what about the tax implications?

    You would be better to pay down the home loan first as the interest is not deductible. If you pay the investment down you will end up paying more tax, while the home loan will remain high with you paying more interest there.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    @dwolfe
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    Yeah I'm with that but I don't live in a mortgage. All the properties I own are rented. I would still rather pay more tax and have more equity to use and own more of the property. Am I completely off base here? Am I better of to save tax and keep my cash under my bed?

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    In that case it is a bit different.

    Paying down debt is good, but once you pay into a loan your money cannot be taken out again (eg redraw) without tax consequences.

    So I would suggest you set up a 100% offset account on at least one loan and continue to pay IO and then save all the extra money in the offset. You will continue to save the same amount of interest as if you paid into the loan, but your cash will be available later on.

    an example may explain it better.

    eg. you have a loan of $100,000 with $50,000 cash windfall. You could pay the $50,000 into the loan and reduce the balance to $50,000. Or you could put $50,000 in the offset and have a $100,000 loan. Either way you will be paying interest on only $50,000.
    say you then decide to buy a place to live in. You need $50,000 deposit. You could withdraw it from your loan. But the interest on this $50,000 would not be deductible. You would have a $100,000 loan with only $50,000 being deductible.

    But if you had used the offset you would just withdraw if from the offset account. The loan would still be $100,000 but interest would be charge on the full $100,000 now. But in this case the full interest on the $100,000 is deductible.

    can you see the difference?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of DWolfeDWolfe
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    @dwolfe
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    Definitely! This is a system I have used in the past. I guess I'm thinking along the lines of when you have a P&I loan and smaller dollar amounts go into this say every fortnight for instance. So where you would pay $600 a month for IO you would then pay $650 for P&I. Is this money better in the offset even though it is smaller $$ amounts?

    I guess the other thing is tax wise an equity loan is pretty useless as you can't claim any interest.

    Thanks!

    D

    DWolfe | www.homestagers.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    yes, better in an offset for tax reasons. Interest would be the same whether money goes into loan or offset.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of dnh83dnh83
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    @dnh83
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    Terry – How does this work for PPORs ??

    I'm currently paying P&I for my PPOR, would I be better just paying IO to the bank and dumping the principle into an Offset, especially if i'm making my start in investing (will the bank allow me to do this on a PPOR ??)

    I can see how the benefits of this mean I'll have more cash available come time to buy another property, but what are the downsides ??

    I know I wont be reducing the loan, so my repayments wont get smaller, but if we're only talking about a loan of $200k is it really that bad ??

    Cheers,

    Darren

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    hi Darren

    You can do it on a PPOR. But you need to be careful there.

    Best with an eg again.

    Say your PPOR loan was for $100,000 and you had $50,000 in the offset. You would have 2 choices if buying an IP

    1. use the $50,000 in the offset as a deposit.
    or
    2. pay the $50,000 into the PPOR and then reborrow it for the deposit for the IP.

    2 is much better as the interest on the $50,000 will be deductible. ie your home loan is now $50,000 and  you have reborrowed $50,000 for investment.

    With option 1 your home loan would still be $100,000 and you would be paying interest on the full $100,000 because the deposit for the IP wasn't borrowed.

    So why use an IO loan with offset for a PPOR?
    You would be no worse off in terms of interest by using the offset and IO, but you have the flexibility to pay the loan down if you need to.

    After a few years you may want to upgrade to a bigger PPOR and keep the existing one as an IP. If you had paid down the loan all your money may still be available as a redraw, but the interest on this money when taken out would not be deductible. But if you have used the offset option the loan won't be going down so all the interest on the full amount would be deductible if you converted the house to an IP.

    Does this make sense?

    With an IO loan you can also pay extra off it at any stage. So you could even keep the loan IO and pay the equivalent to PI if you wished to. if you were going thru a tight period you could reduce the repayments (if you had a PI loan you would need to reapply to do this). The repayments are lower than a PI loan so you can afford more investments.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of dnh83dnh83
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    @dnh83
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    I dont know enough about the Tax Benefits/Implications/Deductions associated with Property Investing to fully understand all of the intricacies that go with the information above, however, in theory it does make sense and I can follow where you're going with it – I do need a good Accountant tho !!

    Given I'm just starting out, I see cash in the bank as my best asset to re-invest into new PI's – can I instruct my bank (NAB) to change my current P&I home loan over to an IO loan ??  (it's currently the only loan I have with the bank – but I'm soon to be getting another $50k to complete my sub-division).

    If I can achieve this, it'll only dump a small amount each week back into my offset, but right now, every little bit helps !!

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
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    Hi

    You will have to apply for a variation to change to IO and they may charge you a fee, depending on the product you are currently on et.c

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of dnh83dnh83
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    @dnh83
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 81

    Thanks Terry – I'm meeting with the Bank this week, will see what they say…

    Profile photo of zac_moosezac_moose
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    @zac_moose
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Good info terry, I am in the same position as dnh, I have just bought a place for 235, and will have about 180 loan, going to make it io. The loan wont have offset, only redraw, however it sounds like this doesn't matter and is in fact beneficial.
    Can you give a broad overview of when redraw is better and when offset is better? Does it change depending on the size of the loan?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
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    Redraw is totally different to IO+offset in terms of tax.

    Redraw should be avoided in most cases because of the potential tax problems.
    eg. You have a $100,000 loan and pay it down to $60,000 and then redraw $40,000 to buy a boat.
    You then move out of the house and keep it as an investment. Your total loan is $100,000 but the interest is only deductible on the $60,000 portion as you borrowed $40,000 for a boat (assuming not for business etc).

    If you had used the offset account option the interest on the full $100,000 would be deductible.

    If it is an owner occupied home and you never intend to move out it should be ok. But you never know what the future can bring, so why not use an IO loan with an offset?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of dnh83dnh83
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    @dnh83
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 81

    Terry – I'm borrowing another $50k from the bank next week (ontop of my current $200k loan):
     
    $35k for the remaining sub-division work
    $15k to fix up the external of my existing home (Paint, Repairs and Front Verandah).  This will help with street appeal come time to sell back block/house.

    I spoke with my Bank Managers Associate today to discussed changing my current P&I over to IO – she stated it shouldnt be a problem…my plan is also to get the additional $50k as IO with a linked offset account (as we've discussed in this post)…

    With this in mind I have 2 questions:

    1 – Are there any Tax / Deduction implications with having 2 separate IO accounts that I should be aware of ??  (all I can see are the positives…)
    2 – What's the banks general position on IO loans, is there something people can do that commonly helps persuade the bank to allow IO loans ?? 

    I've convinced the Associate the my current PPOR is an IP (which it is) as I've heard IO Loans are generally only for IP purchases…

    Your thoughts ??

    Cheers,

    Darren

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    You shouldn't have any issues on using a split for the new loan. This is good practice if you need to aportion interest for eg.

    IO for PPOR loans is possible. Don't think banks have any issues with this

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of dnh83dnh83
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    @dnh83
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 81
    Profile photo of zac_moosezac_moose
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    @zac_moose
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    So, in my case we will have about 180k io loan, with no offset account. so we would be better off just paying the min and then pumping any extra cash into some other avenue than paying it down?

    With your example above what if the you redraw 40k for an ip or other investment (not a boat)?

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Zac Yes just pay in the minimum amount.

    If the redrawn funds are for investment then that is fine but i personally would still like to see a split loan account to keep things nice and clean for accounting purposes.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

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