All Topics / Legal & Accounting / Renting trust-owned property back to myself???

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
  • Profile photo of MrUniqueNameMrUniqueName
    Member
    @mruniquename
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 25

    Hi guys,

    I just joined this site about 5 mins ago, so my apologies if this qst has been posted before – I haven't had time to read through the forums.

    My question is: can I transfer/sell my home to a trust (with wife and me as the beneficiaries) with a company as trustee (with wife and me as directors) and then neutrally-gear rent it back to ourselves, so that we can claim tax benefits as it will be an investment property?

    Hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I will clarify.

    Thanks for your help!

    Dave.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    you could but………..

    The trust will own the property so only it can claim any losses. Trusts cannot distribute losses, so unless your trust has other income it won't help you save tax now – the losses will carry forward and can be used to offset future income. ie you cannot personally claim the losses or reduce your own tax.

    You will also be up for stamp duty and will lose the CGT exemption status on this property.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of eddieceddiec
    Member
    @eddiec
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 113

    There may be a way to achieve negative gearing by way of a "gift and loan back" arrangement even if the trust does not have any income.  It involves buying the property in an individual's name but having the trust take a second mortgage over the equity in the property. 

    You need to talk to an accountant and/or a lawyer to investigate if you could use the arrangement in your specific circumstance.

    Eddie
    [email protected]

    Profile photo of mj88mj88
    Member
    @mj88
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 14

    I am interested in this structure "gift and loan bak"can you please recommend any accountant specialise in this matter  , I have 3 IPs and my PPOR under my own name for tax minimization, just set up DFT for next IP. thanks a lot
    M

    Profile photo of MrUniqueNameMrUniqueName
    Member
    @mruniquename
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 25

    Hi Eddie

    I don't suppose you're a co-author of certain series of books, are you?

    Cheers

    Dave.

    eddiec wrote:
    There may be a way to achieve negative gearing by way of a "gift and loan back" arrangement even if the trust does not have any income.  It involves buying the property in an individual's name but having the trust take a second mortgage over the equity in the property. 

    You need to talk to an accountant and/or a lawyer to investigate if you could use the arrangement in your specific circumstance.

    Eddie
    [email protected]

    Profile photo of eddieceddiec
    Member
    @eddiec
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 113

    Hi Dave

    LOL, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how one sees it, no. That wasn't me but I do know who you are referring to though. 

    If I have time to publish books, I would have preferred to write anything other than tax since I am immersed in it every day!

    Eddie
    [email protected]

    Profile photo of mj88mj88
    Member
    @mj88
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 14

    can anyone give my advice on this: I have my DFT with Company as trustee , the trust was stamped in NSW and now I am in process of buying a IP in Darwin under  this trust, my question is: do I have to get the trust stamped in NT. or I can buy property anywhere without worrying about stamping again in each state
    thanks heap for reply
    M

    Profile photo of PosEnterprisesPosEnterprises
    Member
    @posenterprises
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 290

    talk to some good accountants who understand property investment – http://www.strategicwealth.com.au

    or http://www.gatherum-goss.co.au

    maybe advisable!

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    mj88 wrote:
    can anyone give my advice on this: I have my DFT with Company as trustee , the trust was stamped in NSW and now I am in process of buying a IP in Darwin under  this trust, my question is: do I have to get the trust stamped in NT. or I can buy property anywhere without worrying about stamping again in each state
    thanks heap for reply
    M

    You probably don't need to get it restamped. In NSW stamping depends on where the parties to the trust reside. It is probably the same in the NT – you could check by going to the website of the NT Office of State Revenue (or similar)

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of mj88mj88
    Member
    @mj88
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 14
    Terryw wrote:
    mj88 wrote:
    can anyone give my advice on this: I have my DFT with Company as trustee , the trust was stamped in NSW and now I am in process of buying a IP in Darwin under  this trust, my question is: do I have to get the trust stamped in NT. or I can buy property anywhere without worrying about stamping again in each state
    thanks heap for reply
    M

    You probably don't need to get it restamped. In NSW stamping depends on where the parties to the trust reside. It is probably the same in the NT – you could check by going to the website of the NT Office of State Revenue (or similar)

    Terry Thank you so much for your advice
    M

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    mj88

    As Terry has mentioned you will not need to get the Trust restamped.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of mj88mj88
    Member
    @mj88
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 14

    another question regarding family trust please, my DFT has a corporate trustee, the trustee company has an ABN & TFN, do the DFT need an ABN and TFN for tax return? or it can be the same ABN & TFN as the company
    thanks
    Mj

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    The trust is a separate entity for tax reasons so it needs its own TFN and ABN and GST registration – if it applies. The company needs to lodge a tax return (nil usually) as well as the trust.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Grow SMSFGrow SMSF
    Participant
    @evolve
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 66

    They don't even bother stamping them in some states – I know we don't here in QLD.

    Have had some issues with some banks asking for a stamped deed – guess they didn't get the memo.

    So many little hurdles to navigate through – no wonder this forum is doing a roaring trade.

    Grow SMSF | Grow SMSF
    https://growsmsf.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Self-Managed Super Fund (SMSF) Specialist Accountants

    Profile photo of rtsapsteadrtsapstead
    Member
    @rtsapstead
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 12
    eddiec wrote:
    There may be a way to achieve negative gearing by way of a "gift and loan back" arrangement even if the trust does not have any income.  It involves buying the property in an individual's name but having the trust take a second mortgage over the equity in the property. 

    You need to talk to an accountant and/or a lawyer to investigate if you could use the arrangement in your specific circumstance.

    Eddie
    [email protected]

    Hi Eddie,

    Can you please comment a bit more on this "gift/loan back" arrangement. I'm looking at attempting something similar.

    Thanks
    Row

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Say you have a property worth $100,000 with a loan of $30,000. That means you have $70,000 exposed if you are sued.

    So what you do is gift $70,000 to your trust. Your trust then lends you $70,000 and it takes a second mortgage over your property as security.

    I am not sure of the taxation implications. The trust should probably charge you interest to make the transaction commercial. This interest may be deductible depending on what you used the funds for. This would in effect shift income from your personal side to the trust side. The trust can then distribute the income to the lowest tax paying beneficiaries available to it.

    This will acheive tax minimisation and asset protection without actually having the property owned by the trust, or incurring stamp duty/CGT by transferring it to the trust.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    I should point out you will need to be careful of the clawback provisions of the bankruptcy act too. This transaction could be undone if the person were to go bankrupt within 5 years if the transaction was done with the intention to defeat creditors.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TCLinvestmentsTCLinvestments
    Participant
    @tclinvestments
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 84
    Terryw wrote:
    Say you have a property worth $100,000 with a loan of $30,000. That means you have $70,000 exposed if you are sued.

    So what you do is gift $70,000 to your trust. Your trust then lends you $70,000 and it takes a second mortgage over your property as security.

    I am not sure of the taxation implications. The trust should probably charge you interest to make the transaction commercial. This interest may be deductible depending on what you used the funds for. This would in effect shift income from your personal side to the trust side. The trust can then distribute the income to the lowest tax paying beneficiaries available to it.

    This will acheive tax minimisation and asset protection without actually having the property owned by the trust, or incurring stamp duty/CGT by transferring it to the trust.

    Hi I'm learning about this too. I am assuming that the gift and the loan back of the $70 000 are only minute postings in the company meeting registers right. No money is actually transfered physically.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Well, you would need a formal loan agreement and stamp duty may be payable in your state. And, to make it an authentic transaction you need to pay the money over. Otherwise it may be a scheme to defeat creditors.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic. If you don't have an account, you can register here.