Damo,
Everyones expectations are too high. You don't want to have your granparent's life on retirement but if you have any better it will cost some part of this country more than theirs does. You can't have that little bit better without someone having that little bit worse – it's all balanced. I don't know the answer but I do know that people want too much for themselves.
My grandfather worked for 50 out of his 72 years of life and was happy with the 7 he got on the pension to tend his garden before he died. He was alive during the last depression, fought in the second big war and knew the true value of things. I see his generation as the last of the unselfish Australians, since then we have all become too spoilt with long, soft lives and shallow dreams.
Have you ever considerred that after you retire you are not supposed to have much to wake up to each day? Society can't support generation after generation only working 50% of their lifespans – you do realize that, don't you?
Don't kid yourself – the ideal of making money to better yourself can only lead to a few places of which one is the gold taps vs mud huts and another is lining up for bread…
And BTW – I can only judge residential IP owners on those I know (which is a few) and although I like most of them as people they are only in the IP game for what they can gain – they don't care about the communities the IPs exist in to any extent other than investment potentials. Residential IP ownership, like everything else, needs balance. An IP owner has a social responsibilty to produce as much for the area in which the IP exists as they do for thier bank balance. This has been forgotten but, fingers crossed, the affordable housing review will make IP owners remember… or sell up.
sniff, sniff…smell like Scamp!
sniff, sniff…smells like Scamp!
ummester wrote:Damo,Everyones expectations are too high. You don't want to have your granparent's life on retirement but if you have any better it will cost some part of this country more than theirs does. You can't have that little bit better without someone having that little bit worse – it's all balanced. I don't know the answer but I do know that people want too much for themselves.
So what do you suggest ? Expect nothing and let the government take care of it like they do in North Korea ?
Quote:Have you ever considerred that after you retire you are not supposed to have much to wake up to each day? Society can't support generation after generation only working 50% of their lifespans – you do realize that, don't you?
Yes, in the best interests of society we should all work 12hr 7 days a week until retirement and then do the honorable thing and commit suicide .
Quote:And BTW – I can only judge residential IP owners on those I know (which is a few) and although I like most of them as people they are only in the IP game for what they can gain – they don't care about the communities the IPs exist in to any extent other than investment potentials. Residential IP ownership, like everything else, needs balance. An IP owner has a social responsibilty to produce as much for the area in which the IP exists as they do for thier bank balance. This has been forgotten but, fingers crossed, the affordable housing review will make IP owners remember… or sell up.You must be thinking of the old Soviet Union here, you want social responsibility try the local church or the nearest socialist party office. We invest our hard earned to MAKE money not to provide charity to slackers and bludgers who are to lazy and stupid to look after themselves. Affordable housing review is just another gabfest and a waste of taxpayers money, but hey if it makes the renters feel important and makes them happy then its worth it.
ummester wrote:Damo,Everyones expectations are too high. You don't want to have your granparent's life on retirement but if you have any better it will cost some part of this country more than theirs does. You can't have that little bit better without someone having that little bit worse – it's all balanced. I don't know the answer but I do know that people want too much for themselves.
My grandfather worked for 50 out of his 72 years of life and was happy with the 7 he got on the pension to tend his garden before he died. He was alive during the last depression, fought in the second big war and knew the true value of things. I see his generation as the last of the unselfish Australians, since then we have all become too spoilt with long, soft lives and shallow dreams.
Have you ever considerred that after you retire you are not supposed to have much to wake up to each day? Society can't support generation after generation only working 50% of their lifespans – you do realize that, don't you?
Don't kid yourself – the ideal of making money to better yourself can only lead to a few places of which one is the gold taps vs mud huts and another is lining up for bread…
And BTW – I can only judge residential IP owners on those I know (which is a few) and although I like most of them as people they are only in the IP game for what they can gain – they don't care about the communities the IPs exist in to any extent other than investment potentials. Residential IP ownership, like everything else, needs balance. An IP owner has a social responsibilty to produce as much for the area in which the IP exists as they do for thier bank balance. This has been forgotten but, fingers crossed, the affordable housing review will make IP owners remember… or sell up.
Wow i thought there was merit in much of what you had to say but you undid most of it with your last post. What a sad view to have on how we should evolve as a country.
By your thinking we should be no better off than the generation before. That to me means we have failed. I know i have a easier life than my ancestors. As i should
Yes at the moment it looks like the next generation will not have a better life but things have seemed this way many times before. After all we were meant to be wiped out by nuclear war by now right?
I want and expect my children and there children to have a better easier life than i did.Well atleast have the good things in life avilable to them. If they end up lazy and without drive to better themselves then it is there failings not our society. But that just puts us back to where many are failing today. Lazy and no drive to better there life.
ummester,
Investing in IP's is not only done to increase ones bank balance.
It is also done to provide financial security for our children and their children.
Aren't they part of society and aren't we giving to them.Having IP's is another form of small business and has just as many risks.
We give back to the community by providing accommodation, that is normally affordable and decent.
Society could easily afford people working only 50% of their life time if managed in a financially and viable way.
Unfortunately there are those that would prefer not to work and only live off hand outs.
There will always be divisions in society financially and it isn't fair to criticize those that have gone without in the past to create financial freedom for themselves today.Ummester,
I have figured out how you can afford to get the home off your dreams. Take you saving and head down to the casino and put everything on black. You either get a whole heap of money and buy your home or you loose it all and then you can get a government home and winge to them. That way we greedy invester don't have to listen to you wingeing that we are robbing the poor to feed the rich. It seems to me that you have solved the Australian housing problem without anyone elses help. I suggest that you go down and knock on the PM's door and explain it to him.
Damo
No – I am not Scamp.
devo,
What about being morally better off than the generation before us? Having an easier life does not always mean a better life. Better, in this case, obviously depends on your POV.
If assets values in Australia don't decrease, successive generations will not have better lives. People in the 20's thought that future generations would be better of than them in the financial sense – they weren't until around the 80's. 50 odd years of greater financial hardship caused by greed, speculation and overindulgence and it's coming around – read your history and watch the news.
C2,
Define affordable?
Depending on which small business you run there are always laws and regulations governing standards required. Hence the reason for this thread, residential investment, as a business, requires greater regulation.
Society can only afford people to work 50% of their lives if we are breeding faster than we retire but then we run into all sorts of population problems that have adverse effects on the planet (already have). There is a self sustaining balance that can be reached but we need to grow up a little as a species to get there and the pursuit of financial wealth hiders that maturity.
Rich in happiness with health, purpose and knowledge is better than rich in money, cars and houses period.
Damo,
Unfortuanately I don't gamble.
The PM is getting there by himslef, in an ass about kind of way. He could go about it better and is meeting all kinds of opposition but he is on, more or less, the right path. His two biggest problems are peer group pressure and the financial world collapsing around him.
ummester wrote:No – I am not Scamp.devo,
What about being morally better off than the generation before us? Having an easier life does not always mean a better life. Better, in this case, obviously depends on your POV.
If assets values in Australia don't decrease, successive generations will not have better lives. People in the 20's thought that future generations would be better of than them in the financial sense – they weren't until around the 80's. 50 odd years of greater financial hardship caused by greed, speculation and overindulgence and it's coming around – read your history and watch the news.
C2,
Define affordable?
Depending on which small business you run there are always laws and regulations governing standards required. Hence the reason for this thread, residential investment, as a business, requires greater regulation.
Society can only afford people to work 50% of their lives if we are breeding faster than we retire but then we run into all sorts of population problems that have adverse effects on the planet (already have). There is a self sustaining balance that can be reached but we need to grow up a little as a species to get there and the pursuit of financial wealth hiders that maturity.
Rich in happiness with health, purpose and knowledge is better than rich in money, cars and houses period.
Damo,
Unfortuanately I don't gamble.
The PM is getting there by himslef, in an ass about kind of way. He could go about it better and is meeting all kinds of opposition but he is on, more or less, the right path. His two biggest problems are peer group pressure and the financial world collapsing around him.
Sorry mate. I dont believe this guilt trip from a moral direction. What i do anyone can do. I will not feel guilty for putting in more effort than the person next to me.I understand people today must pay more than i did for many things. But when i bought my property i paid more than the previose owner. I do not resent them. I accept that this is the order of things.
To argue a case from a moral point of view just means that you have no other substance to base your argument on.
Devo,
I find it sad that you don't consider morals one of the best cases to base an argument on. Still, each to their own.
Of course everyone should pay more than the previous owner (unless in a time of correction) but never more than what other financial and moral factors determine – like wage growth and inflation.
Irreguardless if arguments are moral or financial, however, it is becoming undeniable that the Western World is in for the mother of all corrections – well, the biggest since the 30s.
Morals are a great bases of a argument but when the argument is the have nots against the haves then the moral argument goes out the window.It becomes a pure personal gain issue from both sides.Investors are up front about it while many others are not.
As for the biggest correction since the 30,s. Who knows. I notice that the mood is changing over at GHPC with many starting to doubt the size of the impending crash. Maybe its time for another bombing run on the investors as they say and try to stir up some more negative sentiment. i personally do believe we are in for a sizable correction and i have plans to protect myself and hopefully gain from it. But i also believe that we will get through it and it will be business as usual a few years later.
Some may question the moral stance of purchasing of buyers who are distressed. Yet this is what many gloomers are intending to do.But they only hate investors right. Well i guess that means if they find a bargain they must ask the owner if it is owner occupied. If it is they must walk away but if its a IP then they can screw the landlord and buy it. Somehow i dont think that will happen.
Devo,
I see your point and agree that even gloomers take immoral advantage. In a capital democracy it is unavoidable – everyone wants a bargain.
I am not trying to argue from an individual basis, only from the basis of what I believe is better for the country overall. I believe the average Australian's over-interest in capital worth has caused the country to loose it's moral way and that it is one of the factors that will be corrected in the coming years. The new generations coming up don't want as much money and facets of distraction anymore. They want what they are lacking – discipline, social bonds, equity and so on. I'm not talking about X or Y either, I am talking about those disgruntled kids you see in tracky pants at the bus stop – this countrys future and they want a change. I could be wrong but I don't think so. Time will tell.
What is the point of having 50% of the country wealthy if it has to imprison itself from the other 50% – aka South Africa. I think most Australians would preffer financial mediocrity, so long as they can walk the streets at night, so long as their kids are safe.
I like the way you think and it would be a different world if everyone was the same as you. But unfortunately the mighty dollar rules all so it becomes a case of beat em or join them. Cant beat the rich so im trying to join them. It seems to me that civilisations are formed and grown on the basis of wealth transfer. everyone is worth something and you use the skills of people at a cost ( Money)From this things grow. this is an extreme basic view of things. But the problem seems to form when all the wealth transfers from the many to the few( RICH). This appears to be the downfall of many past civilisations.Can this fault be corrected. I truely do not believe so. Just as cycles seem to appear in every part of life. Countries will also fall prey to this evolutional cycle.
So where are we on this cycle. We are moving along but i feel we are far from the tipping point. America may be closer but still way way from it. So for me it becomes a game of self preservation and the protection of my family and friends. That can best be done with the accumilation of wealth. This will bring financial freedom,Low stress from not worrying about cash shortfalls. Looking after myself and others through medical support i could afford and also the purchase of the fine things in life.
We only live once. We are dead a long time.
I think we are at the tipping point and falling.
Housing cost more than the average Ozzie can afford (even the average family) and a lot of people are leveraged as far as their incomes will take them on 5-7% interest rates. Rental rates are more than some people can pay and there are vacancy crisis because 1) much of the prior rental stock is up for sale 2) landlords still in the game have to keep up with inflationary pressures. The inflationary pressures are coming form commodities prices and overvalued assets but not from spending or wages, meaning that the only way to possibly keep up is debt. But the banks have more debt (yes, in Australia too) than they can handle – remember debt is future money but if the indebted are either leaving the workforce or have decreasing asset values that debt becomes a liability. Only possible results are a rise in unemployment and a decrease in asset values, which is happening at an increasing rate. This is the crux of the American problem – what are the underlying asset values really worth? It will be our problem aswell.
I have been reading about this (on and off) since the 80s – it has been a growing problem for that long. Of course the exponential peak of the problem hasn't really occurred until the last couple of years. True it is a cycle (but there are cycles within cycles) and
true the base skills of an individual are worth money (but like assets they are currently overvalued in the western world) Basically, investing in skills and assets only works if the sum of the investment is less than the true sum of the skills and assets.I think when the full extent of the shift comes it wil leave many people in positions where they have to revalue what is important to them. Extravagent lifestyles (for most) will become a thing of the past (for the next 15-50 years – depending on how big the bust is). What will become important again are base values, saftey and community… eventually…
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