All Topics / Help Needed! / Best advice : Don’t invest into property : The australian market is CRASHING.

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  • Profile photo of devo76devo76
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    Scamp wrote:
    I know, and I'm not god. It's no secret, just use your brains. It's there for everyone to see. Only the bulls close their eyes.

    Oh, the recent rental vacancies in Sydney here btw :

    ……………………2-May..30-May…6-Jun..13-Jun..20-Jun..27-Jun..Chg Week..Chg Total
    Canterbury/Bankstown…..424…..431…..461…..500…..511…..527…..3.13%…..24.29%
    Eastern Suburbs………1968….2247….2299….2332….2406….2415…..0.37%…..22.71%
    Hills………………..305…..324…..302…..293…..323…..361….11.76%…..18.36%
    Inner West…………..1134….1264….1281….1393….1377….1439…..4.50%…..26.90%
    Liverpool / Fairfield….331…..396…..378…..375…..382…..366….-4.19%…..10.57%
    Macarthur/Camden………325…..392…..352…..333…..308…..311…..0.97%…..-4.31%
    North Shore – Lower…..1129….1285….1289….1356….1328….1330…..0.15%…..17.80%
    North Shore – Upper……529…..584…..578…..603…..667…..640….-4.05%…..20.98%
    Northern Beaches………555…..592…..630…..645…..641…..644…..0.47%…..16.04%
    Northern Suburbs………355…..393…..399…..394…..406…..412…..1.48%…..16.06%
    Parramatta……………696…..677…..666…..733…..716…..785…..9.64%…..12.79%
    St George…………….372…..401…..387…..418…..434…..415….-4.38%…..11.56%
    Sutherland……………358…..429…..440…..479…..464…..421….-9.27%…..17.60%
    Sydney City…………..761…..875…..836…..893…..920…..901….-2.07%…..18.40%
    Western Sydney………..623…..651…..605…..640…..649…..680…..4.78%……9.15%
    ……………………9865…10941…10903…11387…11532…11647…..1.00%…..18.06%
    ……………………4.18%..2.07%…1.28%…2.98%..-0.35%…4.44%…1.27%

    Conclusion : 18% ( !! ) extra vacant rentals up just this month may. And that number will only go up in months to come, as less people are able to sell their IP's , they will rent them out, pushing rental prices down.

    Like I told you weeks ago already : Rental prices will go down, not up. The futile try by investors and banks and government to push up rental prices was easily and preductably beaten by the supply and demand market.
    God has nothing to do with this, just like he won't save the investors who put themselves into debt beyond their capacity. ( although the tax payers might be screwed in the first few months, this will also not have any effect longterm on the crash ).

    Nice statistics. Although i would like to know how other areas went. Population changes,and types of properties available.Vacancies are not going to keep getting tighter for ever. Everyone knows this but a slight change does not mean all is about to changePick any monthly period from your statistics and you get as different result.Could you please add the amount of houses vacant and for sale please. I bet that number is rising to meaning the former residents are now looking for somewhere to rent.. Crap imaging the rent you could get for the last available house in Sydney.

    So when people cant sell there IP,s they rent them adding to the rental pool hey. Arent they already renting them.I think the bigger effect will be PPOR owners moving out and renting as the sell or lose there homes.Although i do agree that they will stabilise at some point.
    You can throw all the figures you want around the proof is on the street. The better quality rentals are hard to get. That go,s for the city and country towns.I have a rental in a regional town. They are lining up to rent it. Its not a stat. Its a FACT.
    I like how slight changes in% rates mean massive changes to some.

    I remember when things started moving in housing values some time back. The news stated how some houses have doubled in value and the doom and gloomers scoff at investers who thought all houses will do the same. Now a few drop and they cant state quick enough that all will drop. So one minute all homes are different. Then the next they are all the same. Its Just your typical grabbing  of one example and forming a response from that to cover the broader market.

    Oh my god  a house in sydneys west just halved in value so that means my house in broom is about to do the same SELL SELL SELL.
    After all that i do actually believe values will drop but not equally across the country.
    Some will lose heaps
    Some will lose a little
    Some will stagnate
    Some will go up
    This is no different to any other year . Its just the percentages that change.
    Thats my rant. Bed time now.

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    I know that rental vacancy in newcastle WAS 1% but now heading towards 3%…
    Lots of property for rent in Newcastle Herald compared to 1-2 years ago

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    Scamp wrote:
    Yarpos : Yes ofcourse. Where do you think the expression "USA sneezes and Australia catches a cold" comes from ?
    Just look at the events of what happened in USA. Then extrapolate to Australia. 18 months difference, everything else is the same.

    The global market is changing US and UK are toast and Aussie is in a good position with BRIC economies commodity prices aint going down anytime soon.   Just returned from the gas fields and there is so much work it aint funny.

    Scamp have you seen the chart of Australain house prices over time and why do you think it will be different this time.

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    Affordability debate warped by outmoded benchmarks

    Media is preoccupied with the cost of housing. Affordability is the pet theme of current affairs television and talkback radio, and The Australian has published 63 stories on the subject in the past three months. Even the tabloid press in capital cities has waded in. Yet few of them have nailed the reasons it's more difficult for Australians to buy their first home.

    A common benchmark defines "housing stress" as a situation where more than 30% of a household's income is used for shelter. This is the figure used by many popular media "surveys", which then go on to rate causes of poor affordability as including higher interest rates, government taxes & charges and high levels of household debt. Traditional affordability indexes produced by the REIA/Deposit Power and the HIA/Commonwealth Bank calculate that average Australian families are spending between 35% and 40% of household income on home loan repayments.

    Property researcher Michael Matusik reveals that the 30% benchmark commonly used to define affordability was produced by the Federal Government for a 1992 conference aimed at developing a national housing strategy. However, it was only ever intended to be applied to lower-income households.

    The common use of Census data to define weekly household income should also be under scrutiny, according to Matusik. One in eight people did not state their income in the 2006 Census, resulting in a lower median household income than is actually the case. Matusik says that if income data produced by the Australian Taxation Office is used instead, it provides a more accurate picture. For example the median household income in Queensland was $1,030, according to the 2006 Census. The ATO's figure for 2006 is $1,250 – 21% higher.

    Matusik then outlines the Reserve Bank of Australia's three alternative approaches to defining affordability:

    1) Surplus income after debt servicing: Rising incomes mean households are able to meet rising loan repayments (devoting as much as 47% of their income to debt servicing) while maintaining (and even increasing) living standards.

    2) Household income in the age bracket of typical first-home buyers (25 to 39). The RBA calculates that on this basis the typical first-home buyer could afford one third of the dwellings offered to the market in the last 12 months. Matusik takes this further and suggests this figure could be as high as 40% in Queensland. (The Census approach is to lump all age groups in together for household income purposes.)

    3) Investment assets and income: Traditional methods of measuring affordability do not take into account the ratio of household debt to (investment) assets, a common measure used by share investors to assess the level of risk.

    "These three measures suggest that housing affordability is not as dire as many fear," Matusik writes in a recent report. He points to a very low level of housing loan arrears (0.3% in 2007). Australia has low unemployment and incomes are growing at a steady pace.

    Matusik says housing affordability is "constrained" but not, as the latest salvo of media reports suggest, at crisis levels. "Borrowers are well placed to replay their loans," he concludes.

    Nevertheless, we remind readers about a survey published in The Economist which showed Australia is high on the list of countries where housing prices are far above the level that can be explained by economic fundamentals. This could well lead to potential buyers considering not only "can we afford this home?", but also "is this good value at the price?"

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    bardon wrote:
    Scamp have you seen the chart of Australain house prices over time and why do you think it will be different this time

    Yes. Have you ? Here's the graph by the way ( in case someone looks for it )

    Houseprices since 1880 to 2007

    Why it's going to be different ? Well… I have said it a million times already : The money tap is closed.
    There's no more money, people are in debt as far as you can possibly get them. No money = no buyers.
    No buyers mean oversupply in sales ( which you see now ) which means houseprices will come down to prices where people can pay for their mortgage affordably again ( pre-1990 prices )

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    bardon wrote:

    Why doesn't the graph use the median ( 50th percentile ) of the houseprices instead of just 30 percent ?
    On top of that, 10% deposit ? You know anyone who does that ? And that's at 6% interest rates.

    Try making a new graph, based on REALITY :

    – 10% interest
    – median houseprice , not 30% of it
    – no deposit.

    Let's do the maths : Let's assume a median houseprice of 500.000$ for easy maths
    10% interest = 50.000 dollars per year just paying interest. Your graph says that income is about 70.000 ( which I doubt ) , so they have 20.000 GROSS income left. After taxes, let's assume they have 14.000$ AUD left to live. You still think housing in Australia is affordable ?

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    Scamp wrote:
    Yarpos : Yes ofcourse. Where do you think the expression "USA sneezes and Australia catches a cold" comes from ?
    Just look at the events of what happened in USA. Then extrapolate to Australia. 18 months difference, everything else is the same.

    About the rental crisis : There is no rental crisis. People who say that are blind.
    Soon it will all become clear to everyone, when rents will be dropping.
    Until then, it's good news for the bears, since rising rents are a form of inflation, and we all know what happens is inflation rises, right ? ( think RBA ) On top of that, government will take measures to drop the rental prices, where there is no rental crisis in the first place, this will contribute to the problem even more.

    People using the rental price increase excuse really are blind to the obvious.

    why yes I think I used to hear that phrase in the 80's,  I thought the world had changed a bit since then.  The EU and the rise of China and India and eventually Latin America have changed the game somewhat.   The US still has a big impact but trotting out old mantras doesnt really mean much.   I was interested to know if there had been a housing crash that we had followed in 18 months.    

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    Well if the lending system stops then the fiat monetary system collapses and its guns, gold, tins of beans and bartering for all of us.  Dont forget the money actually never existed in the first place with the fractional reserve money system new money is not a problem when it is created out of thin air.

    So someone goes to the bank for an 80% mortgage the bank lend the money on paper then they say that they have the equivalent value in the bank and that gives them the reserves to lend 9 times that amount.  It sounds weird but the money is actually created out of thin air and debt must increase as all money is debt and his is where the interest comes from so we need to have ever increasing debt to keep this whole fiat money system going.

    Right now in the US they are chopping down trees pulping them up drying it out putting ink on it and that how money is made. Shocking system no doubt but thats the one we are in if it turns to custard we are all well and truly screwed.

    Back on the charts the one on page one of this report is more descriptive of the price history and I am expecting more of the same in the future.

    http://www.anz.com/documents/economics/Housing%20Snapshot%20April%202008.pdf

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    Scamp wrote:
    [
    Why doesn't the graph use the median ( 50th percentile ) of the houseprices instead of just 30 percent ?
    On top of that, 10% deposit ? You know anyone who does that ? And that's at 6% interest rates.

    Try making a new graph, based on REALITY :

    – 10% interest
    – median houseprice , not 30% of it
    – no deposit.

    Let's do the maths : Let's assume a median houseprice of 500.000$ for easy maths
    10% interest = 50.000 dollars per year just paying interest. Your graph says that income is about 70.000 ( which I doubt ) , so they have 20.000 GROSS income left. After taxes, let's assume they have 14.000$ AUD left to live. You still think housing in Australia is affordable ?

    Good pick up I see that you are smarter than the avearge bear.

    the graph was done from the prespective of a FTB and entry level housing as the FTB's does not start of on the median house price. 

    Two young ladies from work  have just got married and both bought townhouses in the outer suburbs of Brisbane and theyt are making repayments is it a struggle ? probably no less than when I bought my first home.

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    Resources boom sets Australia apart from struggling US: Economy roundup

    Wednesday, 25 June 2008

    Economic events over the last couple of days have provided some compelling evidence of the widening divergence in conditions between the US and Australian economies.

    Earlier this week Rio Tinto revealed that Chinese steel giant Baosteel has agreed to a price rise of 96.5% for its iron ore, while there are reports today that Japanese steel mills have agreed to an even bigger price.

    While the result isn’t all good news – it will add yet more fuel to Australia’s overheating economy – it highlights just what a huge role the resources boom is likely to play in maintaining national prosperity in the years ahead.

    The contrast with the US economy couldn’t be more stark. The June edition of the Conference Board confidence index released overnight revealed consumer confidence there has slumped to a 16 year low, with concerns over job security a key factor in the slump.

    And perhaps even more disturbingly, house prices across the US are continuing to fall. According to the S&P/Case-Shiller index, average house prices across 20 US cities dropped again in April to a level 15.3% lower than the same month in 2007.

    The notion that the Australian economy has decoupled from the US may just be a theory, but the evidence to support it is growing more and more persuasive by the day.

    Pointing the other way, of course, is the Australian sharemarket, which continues to take much of its lead from events in the US. Today the grim US outlook has helped push the S&P/ASX200 down 0.3% on yesterday’s close to 5275.7 at 11.15am.

    That same US weakness has sent the Australian dollar in the other direction – at 11.15pm it is trading at US95.68c, up 0.12% today.

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    $60bn windfall to cushion economy

    THE biggest surge in commodity exports in Australia's history will deliver a powerful boost to the economy in 2008-09, swelling company profits and government coffers and cushioning the nation against global shocks, according to new forecasts.

    But the next phase of the boom will also have a downside, adding to pressure on inflation and interest rates at a time when many people and businesses are struggling to cope.

    The boom will be led by sales of metals, minerals and farm produce, which could earn the nation a record $212.3 billion in 2008-09, up $61 billion on this year, according to the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE).

    "It's the biggest helicopter drop of money onto the Australian economy that we've seen since wool prices went crazy during the Korean War," declared Access Economics director Chris Richardson. "It means that the world is giving us a pay rise for what we already do."

    The ABARE forecasts could yet turn out to be conservative, with news last night that China's steel industry had caved in to demands by mining giant Rio for massive increases in iron ore prices from Australia.

    While the boom will particularly boost the resource-rich states of Western Australia and Queensland, economists say the benefits will be felt nationwide.

    As mining companies boost production to meet overseas demand, state governments will collect more revenue in mining royalties and payroll taxes.

    The Federal Government will be a massive beneficiary, collecting more tax both directly from the mining giants' profits, and indirectly through the additional economic activity and national income generated by the mining boom.

    Shareholders in the mining companies will also benefit from higher dividend payments.

    Mr Richardson said the record commodity export boost was "bigger than Christmas", with Australian income growing at a rate not seen in a generation.

    "Despite all the headlines about US in recession, China and a bunch of other emerging economies, India and the rest of them … they're still growing very fast," he said.

    Surging prices for mined commodities such as iron ore, coal and crude oil, combined with higher export volumes, will be the main drivers of next year's boom, with earnings from mineral and energy exports tipped to be $177.9 billion, up from $120.5 billion in 2007-08, ABARE says.

    The value of metallurgical coal exports is tipped to jump 123% to $39.1 billion, while iron ore exports are projected to jump 72% to $35.3 billion. Earnings from other minerals and energy groups will also soar. Thermal coal exports are tipped to jump 74% to $15.9 billion, crude oil exports 46% to $15.3 billion and gold 14% to $12.5 billion.

    While the top 10 commodity export earners are all from the minerals and energy sector rather than agriculture, the ABARE report contains good news for farmers too. Export earnings from Australian farms are tipped to jump more than 12% to $30.2 billion in 2008-09, largely because of a turnaround in wheat export earnings and continued growth in the value of wine exports.

    But the good news for farm exports is qualified. The figures assume a return to normal seasonal conditions after a prolonged drought, which cannot be guaranteed by economists working in a Canberra office.

    The increase in total farm sector exports is underpinned by a projected 65% rise in winter crop production, a 13% increase in the amount of land sown for wheat to 14 million hectares and historically high world wheat prices.

    ANZ Bank chief economist Saul Eslake said the export jump would have a significant economic impact. "That's a boost of about 5% to our national income, which if you think about it is a very significant increase," he said. "If you think that ordinarily a year's worth of economic growth is worth 3%, this is more than a year's economic growth in normal circumstances."

    David Rynne, director of economics at the Minerals Council of Australia, said the export growth would create more jobs and a stimulus for companies to bring forward investments.

    "People are going to generate some fairly high incomes and they're going to be able to do whatever they want with that income and create wealth," Mr Rynne said. "It will also create very, very high royalty and income tax collections for state and federal governments."

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    1923 Weimar Republic inflation: A German woman feeding a stove with Papiermarks, which burn longer than the amount of firewood they can buy.

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    I invite you to read this:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/coughs-and-splutters/2008/06/27/1214472770918.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

    And also this one for our market:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/house-prices-falling-and-spreading/2008/06/27/1214472770814.html

    IT COULD be a warning sign, or maybe just a blip. Property sales are flashing a signal that the fall in Sydney house prices will not be limited to the city's west.

    An analysis of 2008 sales reveals that the great Sydney equation – take property, mix with water views, and you cannot go wrong – could be breaking down.

    Even at Bondi, where prices have jumped 12.6 per cent in the past four years, the median price has fallen 1.6 per cent this year after 42 sales, figures from Australian Property Monitors show.

    At Avoca Beach on the Central Coast, 115 houses have changed hands this year for a median price of $546,000 – 5 per cent lower than last year's.

    In the nearby holiday spot of MacMasters Beach, median sale prices have fallen 15.6 per cent. A few falls do not necessarily make a trend. But property insiders are warning there is little confidence in a market rocked by rising interest rates, fuel prices and a skittish stockmarket.

    "Everyone is sitting on their hands," said Kim Quick, a property valuer at Herron Todd White.

    The AMP Capital Investors chief economist, Shane Oliver, warned that Sydney property was about 20 per cent over-valued.

    Property prices are tumbling in the US and parts of Britain, and Australian house prices are even more expensive in comparison.

    In the US the ratio of annual income to house prices is about 3:1. In Australia it is about 6:1.

    "I think the weakness we are seeing out west will start to spread to the better suburbs," DrOliver said.

    "It wouldn't surprise me if they came off about 10 per cent over the next 12 months, and that fall being widespread."

    In Newport, on the northern beaches, 163 houses have been sold this year, the most recent figures from Australian Property Monitors show. This year's median house price has been 2.2per cent lower than last year's.

    Real estate agents in some Sydney beachside suburbs say the local downturn is little more than a quirk. Water views will always generate plenty of interest.

    In Tamarama, tucked between Bondi and Bronte, a house in Thompson Street sold for a record $10million this week.

    The principal at Raine & Horne Palm Beach, Glenn Lee, said: "What we're seeing now is a patchy market in some sectors and strength in others.

    "With the premium properties, these are sophisticated players who are simply waiting for the right place to appear." The agency is listing a waterfront house in Newport at $1.85 million, after it failed to sell at an auction with a reserve price of more than $2million.

    At the top end of the market, in Palm Beach, 58 houses have been sold for 5.6 per cent less than the median price last year.

    The fall comes after a 62 per cent jump in the median house price, to $2.55million, in the past four years.

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    bardon wrote:
    Back on the charts the one on page one of this report is more descriptive of the price history and I am expecting more of the same in the future.

    http://www.anz.com/documents/economics/Housing%20Snapshot%20April%202008.pdf

    You realize that only 1% in the world actually knows what a Log Scale is right ?
    Log scales are a nice way to disguise reality, as spruikers have done for a long time.
    In order for the log scale to continue it's upward spiral, you imply houseprices will double in the next 5 years.

    That will not happen. We have reached a top in the housing prices. Simply put, there are only 2 solutions :
    – High inflation ( with double to triple wages within 2-3 years )
    – Houseprice deflation.

    Inflation is the axis of evil. It will be prevented by any government at all costs. This means higher interest rates, which means even more unaffordable houseprices, less buyers even, and thus more pressure on houseprices.

    Deflation is the only way to go. It will happen.

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    I think Australians are BLIND.

    MIAMI, FLORIDA: HOUSING CRASH 50% OFF!!!!

    This little video was created about 9 months ago……just think that things have got worse since.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkuW8bCjC6c

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    NZ House prices plummet by $80,000

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHjzsjINqCk
     
    – 22 % sounds pretty reasonable to me.

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    Scamp wrote:
    [

    Inflation is the axis of evil. It will be prevented by any government at all costs. This means higher interest rates, which means even more unaffordable houseprices, less buyers even, and thus more pressure on houseprices.

    Deflation is the only way to go. It will happen.

    Why do you think that the US Fed has chosen not to act on inflation in the US in fact they are doing the opposite you have a situation where IR's are way lower than inflation and only last week the Fed yet again failed to act ?

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    ItalianDragon wrote:

    I think Australians are BLIND.

    Is this a general statement?

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