All Topics / Finance / Cash Flow Mortgages?

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  • Profile photo of wajowajo
    Participant
    @wajo
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 4

    hello , this is a question for the mortgage brokers out there .. What are your thoughts on the ' Cash Flow Mortgages ' or  'CFM '  ?
     For investments , being able to pay the amout you like( the rent received), and the balnce is capitalised onto the mortgage ..what are the Pros and cons for this ? is it really a good product for investors? thanks ..

    Profile photo of DaedalusDaedalus
    Member
    @daedalus
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 140

    Hi Wajo,

    On the surface of it, this sounds like a really bad idea. It seems that since the property is not generating enough income to cover it's own costs, this product allows you to continue to borrow the shortfall. Since your debt is increasing, your interest payments therefore would also be increasing. They would probably compound pretty quickly. It's a spiral to disaster.

    What is the upside? At what point could someone get off this ride profitably?

    Daedalus.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
    Member
    @l.a-aussie
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 1,488

    Personally, I think it's gambling, and would never do it, unless I had a very low LVR and fell on hard times. Our LVR is currently 58%; quite low, and I wouldn't even consider it.

    Some investors are very aggressive, and see no problem with this strategy, but my guess is they haven't seen a property market slump yet.

    You are letting the interest on the loan accumulate, in the hope that the property will go up in value more than the accumulating interest.

    If there is a downturn in the market, and you need to sell quickly, you could find you owe more than the property is worth, and make a disastrous loss.

    The benefit is that you get less repayments now, and the accumulating interest is tax deductible, but at what cost in the future?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    I personally wouldn't use one of those so called cashflow mortgage products. But I would use a LOC to pay for any shortfall which is essentially the same thing with less costs. Properly structured this would help you pay your PPOR loan off quicker and give you greater tax deductions and it would look less like a scheme to avoid tax in the eyes of the ATO.

    As for living off equity, I would do it too, or maybe supplement other income by taking a bit from a LOC, but it would be a bit scary if you are doing that for a few years without property prices increasing – like in Sydney now. So you need to be careful there too.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of philbambackphilbamback
    Member
    @philbamback
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 18

    I am an originator for these types of loans and have a view from both sides, no type of structure involving equity being used to handle repayments suits anyone but agressive investors hence…

    1. if you look at the structure of the Cash Flow Manager loans they are not at all disimilar to obtaining a Line of Credit to 90% LVR and using this LC to handle approx. 1/2 the repayments.  As per the comment above I am comfortable using a LC for this purpose but many of my clients dont want the hassle of managing it and choose the Cash Flow Option because it is set and forget.

    2. if you use the spreadsheet available (email me for one if you like) you can see that over the 5 year period if you get no growth at all you now owe 90% instead of the 80% you started at.  A break even point would be between 4%-5% growth.

    3. I use them and like them, they have allowed me to restructure many -ve geared properties to provide money in mine and my clients pockets allowing us to get on with our wealth creation instead of worrying about day to day cash flow.

    4. Yes there may be an issue if markets slump, but this is always the case when gearing heavily and no matter how you have done it the risk remains the same.

    All in all its a good product for some people, not for others, no different then structuring a Line of Credit yourself except for the set and forget aspect

    Profile photo of RobLRobL
    Member
    @robl
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 60

    Hey there ..

    for what its worth .. I normally find Marc's post entertaining .. but this time, methinks he is spot on .. if you have the equity to burn – and the guts to burn it (and do consider the opportunity costs of going down the line you choose) … then fine … BUT .. am always wary of those books, murmurs, and the OH GEE LOOK AT ME, that come from the 'gee I just did it and this is how' patch … Chan et al do have an elegant spin – almost Newtonian :-) .. but then .. he didn't get it QUITE right did he (Newton I mean) .. BUT then he might be absolutely right (a statement for the lawyers LOL) .. at its heart its all 'horses for courses'  …  YOU design ya strategy .. YOU make it happen .. (and then YOU write a book it seems).

    I like to reduce debt personally .. others will put forward all sorts of other views .. and they would be right .. absolutely right  – but then, them horses don't run on my track :-) ..

    as I said .. for what it's worth :-)

    take care

    RL

    Profile photo of JONCHUJONCHU
    Member
    @jonchu
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 112

    Here is what I think:

    1. The property is not really positive cash flow as the interest charged is still the entire amount – you have just avoided paying some of it in the first few years. Cash flow is determined by income, plus tax breaks, less expenses. Your 'expenses' are still the full amount of the interest charged. You are just deferring payment of it.

    2. Reliable information about the tax deductibility of capitalised interest on an investment loan is a grey area. If you are using one of these loans, there is a high chance that you will not be allowed to claim the increased interest as a tax deduction in future years.

    3. Most importantly, the scheme relies on rising markets. You cannot predict future growth. If you don't get capital growth, you will end up with a loan higher than the value of property. In short, you will have dug yourself into a hole of negative equity.

    Happy Investing

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    It sounds like someone has been reading the Jenman website, Johchu. I'd agree, dodgy at best but may have been worthwhile if you were in WA or Qld over the past 5 or so years where there has been enormous capital growth.

    Profile photo of philbambackphilbamback
    Member
    @philbamback
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 18

    Most long term investments other than 'true' +ve cash flow rely on the hope of some rise in markets over 7-10 years so I dont believe this is an issue. 

    Of course you are taking a gamble on rising markets over the longer term.  Personally I use a 5% long term growth objective when crunching numbers and any more great any less I knew what I was getting into and have several back up plans.

    I find it interesting that some people think a concept like 'cash flow mortgages' dodgy when the same concept has been used and continues to be used by almost every property investor I meet  who have the ability to have lines of credit to handle any -ve cash flow they may experience.

    I would imagine even some of the posts above have used equity before to fund a shortfall?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi Phil

    I agree that there is no point to investing unless there is capital growth, but less inclined to agree on the cashflow products. These are more organised that the do it yourself model and can therefore attract more attention from the ATO.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of philbambackphilbamback
    Member
    @philbamback
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 18

    I am happy with the tax opinions I have regarding the product and would suggest people get their own Private Binding Ruling from the ATO for their own circumstances if in doubt.

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