NEWSFLASH
Painters are not tradesman.
What profession are you blogs?
Let us learn from you.
Milly the days of something for nothing are few and far between.
User pays is what Australians want.
Millions I love your style.
oneplumber wrote:NEWSFLASH
Painters are not tradesman.
William, what is your definition of a tradesman?
Tools
Generally speaking you can do a painting apprenticeship based on the traditional Master Painters program.
In todays fast paced construction industry these skills are not being passed on.
So in response to my statement; it is difficult to locate a Master Painter and if you locate one, I suggest you pay well because their work will last a long time.
I have been reading this post with interest since it was first started and from what I can see there is one group of people that seem to have been totally ignored during this hate session on Tradies.
WHAT ABOUT THE MONGREL INVESTORS WHO WANT – AND EXPECT – EVERYTHING FOR NOTHING. WHAT A PACK OF VULTURES.
oneplumber wrote:NEWSFLASH
Painters are not tradesman.
What profession are you blogs?
Let us learn from you.
Milly the days of something for nothing are few and far between.
User pays is what Australians want.
What I do for a living is not of concern, what is of concern is that as a consumer I, as with many others are sick and tired of paying 'professional' fees to 'tradies' who are anything but professional. I have said before I have no problem with paying top dollar-but in return expect top level service. When paying $350 a day I dont expect to have to ask a guy to come back 5 times to fix work that should have been donE right the first time, I dont expect to have to shower him with gifts and niceties to get the work done for which I am paying him. If you want to be paid professional wages then its quite simple really-ACT PROFESSIONALLY…….
Maybe tradies are oblivious to what happens in the real world as any work they get done is probably from mates in the game who give top level service becasue they are 'mates'. Surely you arnt so niave as to ignore the fact that on a whole there seems to be a whole lot of rorting and shoddy workmanship being conducted?
oneplumber wrote:Generally speaking you can do a painting apprenticeship based on the traditional Master Painters program.
In todays fast paced construction industry these skills are not being passed on.
So in response to my statement; it is difficult to locate a Master Painter and if you locate one, I suggest you pay well because their work will last a long time.
I think where some of the frustration comes from also is paying wages to a painter that are in line with someone who has spent thousands of dollars on a degree and studying and learning when its not exactly rocket science to swipe a paint brush up and down. I am happy to pay plumbers/electricians etc good money becasue they have also had to learn quite a bit and outlay for tools etc (my only gripe with them is the finished products standard), but with peope such as painters expecting $80k a year is a joke. Now for the people who are sure to say 'then why dont you become a painter', well money isnt everything-hell I could earn $200k a year in security in Iraq, doesnt mean I want to do it…..
blogs wrote:[
Oh BTW for everyone who remembers me being glad to finaly find what I thought was finally a good tradie..I should have known better-he was a painter BTW, well after 5..yes thats right 5 bloody inspections where I had to have him come back for TOTALLY missing areas I gave up and got the paint brush out and finished it myself. Not to mention having to get the turps out myself to clean off all the over paint he got on my tiles, shower, kitchen, windows and even floors!!! But I shouldnt complain, after all I was paying him only $300 csh a day and he was doing me a favour by letting me pay him huh, and I did give him some beers at the start trying to be mister nice guy, what a joke-lets call it 6 times bitten, now foerever shy!!!!!Did you complain to the dept of fair trading??
MasterREL wrote:Did you complain to the dept of fair trading??Nope-was frustrated enough as it was, couldnt be bothered with dragging it out even more, plus all I need is a angry and aggressive tradie banging on my door…was just easier to put it down to experience (again…) and finish the job myself…
Plus aswell as taking peoples prior comments on board about supplying him free beer I also paid him cash (as was also suggested by the trady lovers). Next time though it will be no free beer, striclty cheque with receipt and dept of fair trading and anyone else who will listen if I have to go through this carp again….such a joke…..
I think tradies should be required to quote an hourly rate and detail a schedule of activities in half hourly increments as part of the quoting process. When conducting the work they should maintain a timesheet detailing their actual times and associated activities in half-hour increments to be compared against the quotation. If something unforeseen eventuates, then it’s a matter of negotiating with the customer for a change request.
This is how professional services in many white-collar industries operate, and at least this way you can compare apple with apples based upon an hourly rate and a schedule of works.
Badgers_R_Us wrote:I think tradies should be required to quote an hourly rate and detail a schedule of activities in half hourly increments as part of the quoting process. When conducting the work they should maintain a timesheet detailing their actual times and associated activities in half-hour increments to be compared against the quotation. If something unforeseen eventuates, then it’s a matter of negotiating with the customer for a change request.This is how professional services in many white-collar industries operate, and at least this way you can compare apple with apples based upon an hourly rate and a schedule of works.
OMG you arnt actually sugesting the tradies do something…heaven forbid…professional????
Badgers_R_Us wrote:I think tradies should be required to quote an hourly rate and detail a schedule of activities in half hourly increments as part of the quoting process. When conducting the work they should maintain a timesheet detailing their actual times and associated activities in half-hour increments to be compared against the quotation. If something unforeseen eventuates, then it’s a matter of negotiating with the customer for a change request.This is how professional services in many white-collar industries operate, and at least this way you can compare apple with apples based upon an hourly rate and a schedule of works.
When I went through tafe for an apprentice course I was told the base price is usually materials plus 30% then add for any inconveniences its not as cut and dry as that as every job is different .Still , there is no excuse for shoddy work.But it should be reported or they will just keep doing the same thing.
I think tradies should be required to quote an hourly rate and detail a schedule of activities in half hourly increments as part of the quoting process. When conducting the work they should maintain a timesheet detailing their actual times and associated activities in half-hour increments to be compared against the quotation. If something unforeseen eventuates, then it’s a matter of negotiating with the customer for a change request.
This is how professional services in many white-collar industries operate, and at least this way you can compare apple with apples based upon an hourly rate and a schedule of works.
The unfortunate part of all this is that there are cowboys out there that don't do the right thing and still charge over the moon. This makes the honest people look bad.
In a Fair System approach, I believe you do a good job and charge a fair amount. The problem in this market there is more demand than supply.
The answer is not to legislate the tradies to breakdown every quote and charge an hourly rate.
For instance one accountant I see charges $180 an hour and my friends charges $230 an hour. Why can one charge more than the other? He does a good job… I don't bitch about it, I just pay it.The answer is not to just import more people to soften the market.
I don't want to be offensive to anyone here, but I have seen some tradespeople that have come from other countries and if you think that there are some dodgy workmen here, you haven't seen anything yet.One problem is that no one wants to get their hands dirty anymore.
in Perth last year only 75 tilers copleted their apprenticeship. 150 the year before, and 300 the year before that… I'm sure its the same for other trades. It was found that young people don't want to get dirty anymore.I believe that the answer is on the way as the swing to advertise and appertise employeese/employers to take apprenticeships is growing.
(through government grants and CITB bonuses)Apprenticeships are the crucial key to make sure that trades keep going.
The more the tradies (supply) , the less the demand (work) which at the moment is not a bad thing. Most tilers are wanting to be taken off of lists (in tile supply shops) because they are 4 months in supply of work.
Tradies are a funny breed, be nice to them, and you'll be surprised what you'll get…. Don't underestimate the power of beer…!!!
This is the way that prices will become more fair, quality of work will be passed down, and everybody is in a WIN-WIN situation.
Hope this is a bit of help,
Luke
My 2 cents worth… I am currently extending my home. It's been 13wks and we get several quotes for all work thats needs doing. My stress isn't about being ripped off but about not telling the truth and not turning up. My carpenter is great, found him in the local paper (not the cheapest but i liked him and he had 20yrs experience) – he has worked out well and i would use him again.
The roof guy – wonderful (great price) and did a fantastic job. The plumber (reasonable price) but too busy to turn up when we needed him b4 the plaster (so after a heated discussion) he came out the day of the plaster (oh and they scratched the whole top of my good washing machine). The plasterers (well gee wiz between the smoking, 5 breaks a day and swearing and loud music) the job is turning out great and the price was reasonable. I just keep telling myself it's nearly over.
Concreter – great guy and a reasonable price, did a wonderful job especially the exposed aggregate. (our first concreter who was lined up for 3 weeks bailed on us at the last minute, said he had another job and never even bothered to ring us, grrr)
Electrician (friend of ours) giving us a rate $10 under his usual rate per hour because he is just so busy and can't do better (but i don't care about the money, i know he does a good job and is a great guy) but he still left a live wire exposed (where my kids could get to).
Beer shelled out in total for all tradies – 2 slabs and a few coffees. Every tradie has left rubbish from the cans and lunch left lying around in and around my house. Gee there were hints dropped about providing beer also. I think no matter who we deal with or how much it costs, it is one of those areas where we just want the job done no fuss – but i have learnt it isn't that simple and i'm happy to treat all tradies well as long as i get it in return. My plasterer told me today at 11.30 he was going to lunch and he didn't come back till 4pm!! This upset me as i sent my kids to my MIL's for the day. But i know one thing for sure, my 2yr old will now sleep through any noise. lol
When paying $350 a day………
If you can get a plumber for $350 per day you are on a winner, forget the other whinging.
As a plumber I thoroughly agree with the professional use of time and labour measurement to reduce ambiguity and develop TRUST.
Some blog responses are getting a little personal and money can do that, so here is what I believe a Plumber should.
EASY IDEA: All Plumbers (tradies too!) need to supply a Labour Cost/Charges Menu.
Their clients can access online, or in a pamphlet format.
The labour cost of work by task and time is clearly shown. eg: toilet installation labour charge $150.00.
Supply a short terms and conditions list. eg: does not cover replacing tiles on floor or organising a painter to paint exposed wall.
A good plumber can create profit from an organised and upto date Labour Price/Charges Menu.
Clients win because they can better plan their time and money and are happy to build the PARTNERSHIP!
In my experience any unforeseen extras are usually agreed easily because TRUST was created in the beginning by sharing information and gaining permission to do the work.
I do it, but I have being learning better ways for 15 years. I call it my 15 year business apprenticeship.
Thank you.
heres the guide for costs of building works etc,
http://www.archicentre.com.au/AUG2006costguide.pdf
leave the tradies alone , if it wasnt for them people would be dying alot more. like the guy who was told by the bunnings employee how to change a power point and ended up dying… imagine if someone crossed the chemically treated hydronic heating water with the potable water 3 doors up from you? and you drink it for 20 years?
a similar thing happened recently at a Melbourne water drinking fountain.there are 100's of stories like this every month. and you want to let anyone do these jobs? have an apprenticeship of 1 year? GET A GRIP
r1trackday wrote:I'm with masterREL
"If it’s so easy and they make so much money why not become one?"Its so easy to complain. the price is the price…
If your angry about how much tradies can change and inturn, how much money they are making….. try the other option and get your self a trade and earn all this money yourself.. The problem is, no one wants to get there hands dirty in this day and age.. its much easier to sit behind a computer all day.
Travel, quote, travel
travel, unpack, complete task, pack up, travel…… in addition the material price. The job might take 5 mins and $20 worth of material but theres so much more involved… oh, and the customers attitude.. hehehe
I almost enrolled at TAFE for a pre-apprenticeship course in carpentry at the start of 2007 but was employed for 2 months with no wage into a Mortgage Broker development program.
I will re-enroll in about 2 years time when my two daughters are of school age and then try to gain an apprenticeship.
I am a skilled trades person already in electronics however no one fixes electronic equipment any more they throw it away and buy a new one or send it to India to get the work done.
I have a Technical School education and will be considering doing an Apprenticeship in Carpentry or as an Electrician
but I will also be waiting to see if the new federal government will keep the mature apprenticeship scheme going.I am currently getting my hands dirty by working part time in a newsagents. This is a hard physical job as I usually start work at 4.00 AM for 3 days a week and at 5.30 AM for the other 4 days a week, but finish work at 7.30 AM.
me wrote:heres the guide for costs of building works etc,http://www.archicentre.com.au/AUG2006costguide.pdf
leave the tradies alone , if it wasnt for them people would be dying alot more. GET A GRIP
Bwhahahahahahah lol god this was funny!! This was supposed to be funny wasnt it? We should be thankful for tradies stoppping us from killing ourselves? Wha the?
While we are on topic something slightly off topic-who finds it humerous the Electrical Trades Union ads running on the radio of late that says "If it takes 7 years to train a doctor how can you expect to train a sparky in 2". Is it only me or does anyone else find it strange that sparkies are comparing themselves to doctors? Talk about getting a grip……
The media reckon Doctors kill more people then Electricians.
oneplumber wrote:The media reckon Doctors kill more people then Electricians.Good point. Maybe if we gave Doctors beer when they treated us, they might do better too.
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