I believe that the family law courts will look thruogh ANY structure within Austrailan law, including trusts.
CATA
Asset Protection Specialist
[email protected]Dog_tooth,
Pre nups are legal in Aust (form a article), with te words from a lawyer:Prenups have been legally binding only since December 2000, they are largely untested in the courts.
To make sure they are watertight, all assets must be disclosed and both parties need to take independent legal advice.
Prenups don’t affect the rights of children to child support, and the Family Court can overturn them if there is evidence of fraud or unconscionable conduct.
&
Prenuptial agreements, or what lawyers prefer to call “binding financial agreements before marriage”, have only been legally binding since December 2000, when the Family Law Act was amended to include them.
Prenups come under federal jurisdiction, but similar agreements for de facto couples have been recognised by all states since 1984.
Robert Benjamin, chairman of the NSW Law Society Family Law Committee, says that although there are no empirical studies, there is anecdotal evidence that the number of binding financial agreements is steadily increasing.
hellman
Having just been through property settlement after a nearly 4 year defacto ralationship, I believe pre-nups and any other form of financial agreement in a relationship, only work if both parties still want to stick to it. If only one party wants to stick to it, and they’re prepared to argue over it, then basically anything you might want to be fighting over ends up in the lawyers pockets.
Through out the relationship (with only a 30% income contribution) he was the totally hands off, unenthusiastic, risk averse partner …. until it came time to divi up the assets then he was *real* interested. In the end we agreed to split 50/50 regardless of the history. Although this ended up better than if I’d decided to fight him over it, I was considerably p#ssed off about it. I sort of console myself with the undiscussed assumption that we did go into the relationship with a 50/50 mentality. After a hard to handle drought of being asset rich and cash poor in a plataued market, I’ve just signed contracts on my first “post-relationship” property!!
I absolutely agree with the idea of relationships having separate houses and any co-habitation by invitation only – and then not presumed to be long term. After all everyone loves a weekend romance where both parties are on good behaviour
… and here’s a “friend” story. Friend of mine had a pre-nup drawn up for his investment property because his parents were living in it and he didn’t want them out in the street if the marriage broke down – second marriage for him. His now wife was fine with it and it was his parents who had the “unromatic” issues about them drawing it up. Of couse “IF the marriage breaks down” compounded by the “IF there are children from the marriage” and “IF it turns hostile” his parents could still end up in the street, but at least the decent intention was there to start with.
I do think pre-nups have their place. Like the point of making a will (that can be contested – it’s just that one party isn’t around to fight for what they said) …. at least the reality of probable statistics has been discussed, and at least the intentions have been discussed in a hopefully amicable honeymoon atmosphere.
Originally posted by Celivia:If I were happily in love [inlove] and my partner asked me for a Pre Nup I’d:
*a- be hurt [crying] because asking me to sign a Pre Nup is like saying: I don’t trust you- you’ll run off with my money, OR
*b-perhaps snap out of love [puke].The fact that they wouldn’t trust me would either mean that they don’t know me well enough- or they would know that I wouldn’t take advantage, (and I would suggest the relationship hadn’t matured enough to be living together so I wouldn’t take this step yet)…
or it would mean that they don’t trust me full stop (and I’d run…without the money!).Just looking at it from the side of the one being asked to sign a Pre Nup.
So, to the question whether a pre nup has any power, for me personally (not looking at it legally) it would mean it is the weakest link in a serious relationship.
Celivia
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Dear Celivia1. Yes, I fully agree with your views.
2. To me, anyone who is contemplating to get married and is yet thinkng about the pre-nup, should honestly and seriously examine their own underlying thinking: Am I seriously and truly loving my partner unconditionally now or only with one or more conditions, as I actually love myself more than I love my life-partner?
3. Unless, we can capable and truly loving our partner unconditionally in the first place, the marriage is most likely to fail, as self-interests will continue to predominate in one’s thinking rather than this willingness and readiness to prepare to sacrifice oursevles and our one interests/happiness where and when neccessary, for the sake of loving our partner more than we actually love ourselves.
4. Thus, personally, I think people who are thinking of pre-nup, is in effect planning for their marriage to fail in the first place. At the basic mininum, they have actually entertained their own serious seld-doubt and the possibility of a marriage failure in the first place and this kind of negative thinking will in itself, become a self-fullfiling prophesy eventually? Why?
5. Because this, in itself, is clearly reflective of a form of “I first, you second” type of “conditional” love and this kind of limited love is very unliklely able to withstand the social stress of a marriage committment especially when this “I”/my self interest first” types of self-centred and human selfish limited tyoe of conditional love/life attitude is allowed to continue to pre-dominate in one of the spouses’mind and thinking.
5. In my mind too, UNTIL the day we cantruly and honestly ask ourselves whether they are truly able to, willing to and ready to always prepared to die for our life partners unconditonally where and when required to at all times, only when we can and are able to receive a clear and resounding “yes”, we are never truly ready for marriage, ourselves. Nor are we likely able to committ ourselves fully into a marriage.
6. Marriage is a life-time committment and a sacred institution which is not to be treated lightly, such as buying a property, as some mmbers seems to be comparing it to. When we freely and willingly on our free accord to delberately and purposively choose to openly publicly undertakes the wedding vows but subsequently fail to honour it dutifully, we would have also destroyed our own personal integrity and words of honour AND if we choose to willingly fail in our words of honour and live up to its full committments publicly, who then can trust and believe in us again in future?
7. Marriage is NOT something we can treat light and play with nor can we afford to play with such a serious life issue.
8. IF we are in doubt over our own readiness for marriage or/and ability to stay committed towards loving our spouse UNCONDITIONALLY (without any attached conditons and always willing to sarifice ourselves in deference to our spouse interests and happiness) or has doubt in our life partner or the actual relationship, let us not hasten ouselves into a marriage yet;- let us take the neccessary time and invest in it properly, to learn to work out and properly resolve the underlying relationship problem first before entering the marriage institution. It will serve to protect and prolong the relationship (and eventually the marriage too) much longer if one is in place subsequently.
9. For your kind update, please.
10. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Linar:Hi Dutchess
As an ex lawyer (I am now a fulltime Mum) I will give you the best advice you will get on this subject.
Go and see a lawyer who specialises in Family Law. Don’t listen to people who tell you about the situation of a friend of a friend. It is a messy area that is open to interpretation.
Good luck. I hope things work out with this bloke.
K
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Dear All,1. I think better still, go and see a marriage cousellor for pre-marriage counselling first it to see if we are truly indeed psychologically and socially compatible to stay together as long term life partners and whether we, our spouse and our relationship are truly capable, willing and ready to love one another unconditionally and willing to sacrifice ourselves in deference for our partner’s interests and personal happiness at our onw expense willingly and able to withstand the social stress and committment of entering a marriage.
2. If in any slightest doubt oursevles, let us not be hasty into marrying. Let us learn to wait and help one another grow as a person and as a good life partner first before marrying.
3. Going to see a lawyer about pre-nup is like simply planning to fail in a marriage. We have already having doubts/problems about our partner yet we are prepared to “try out” the relationship through a marriage.
3. Marriage is not meant to be “tried out” as some sort of a child play;- it is meant to be lived out for life between 2 willing and ready life partners who are truly capable and committed to loving one another UNCONDITIONALLY for life.
4. This kind of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and lifetime committment and life-attitude towards enhancing and protecting our spouse ‘interests and personal happiness at our own expense, is definitely a better and safer option towards marriage than a pre-nup agreement.
5. For your kind update, please.
6. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by nazzysmith0153:Interesting post this, always wondered if there was any point to a pre nup… I certainly dont want the other half walking away with all my money. But like others theres noway we will break up… Or will we???? People being people theres no guarantee that the other half wont find something better or harbour resentment untill it blows up in my face. Were in a solid commited relaionship and have eyes for no other, however I believe in this day and age statistically things dont look so good. So many broken relationships and Most splits are on bad terms which means the other halves usually go for everything they can get. It would be stupid not to try to protect yourself.
But for me there is noway id go after a prenup. IT undermines the TRUST…+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Nazzysmith0153,1. If couples enters marriage with this selfish attitude that my own self-interests and personal happiness is more important than that of my partner, or/and I only love you when you are preapred to love me in the first place’ type of conditional love basis, is it any wonder such a marriage will fail eventually?
2. Likewise, I think that people who are contemplating having pre-nup, are also planning to fail in their marriage too. By their own actions and thinking, they seem to be saying that they are only prepared to love their life-partner upto that level that they are prepared to share their properties ( but not their lives? ) and if also for their lives too, only for a specificed time frame but note their entire lifetime?) with their partner. Does is it any surpise that such a marriage will equally fail too in due course.
3. Likewise for dating couples who are planning to conveniently co-habits together as some sort of trial marriage arrangement prior to actual marriage, they are also planning to fail in their marriage too. Under such kind of arrangement, we unknowingly “get used” to enjoying all the benefits of a married cuople living together, without/failing to understand the actual social committments required of a real marriage which requires full-time committment and a lot of give and take attitude between the willing life partners to make their marriage truly works for life. This has been confirmed
through research studies in the USA.4. Trust is one thing (as it can be easily broken as in any business relationship);- UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is another totally different thing altogether!
5. Unfortunately, only those marriages that are founded on true UNCONDITIONAL LOVE ( rather than superficial mutual trust basis) will last!
6. For your kind update, please.
7. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Dazzling:When my ex and I split – I walked away with nothing but the kidsYou walked away with everything then…
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Dear Dazzling,How can that be? With a broken marriage, a broken relationship and without a wife or/and with hurts and pains all over for all parties concerned and with always an absent parent for my child and having set up a poor live example and wrong role model for my own kids’ future marriage?
Sorry, I cannot agree with your line of thinking or teaser.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by grossrealisation:hi Dutchess
without taking the high moral ground can I just give my little .002%.
first I have read the and some I agree with and some I don’t but at the end of the day it comes down to trust. you can if you wish put this here and that there but is that trust if he is going to go here or go there again is that trust if you go for a loan and you are going for the loan and the bank lends this is this trust.
we live on trust and if you dont think this person lives on trust then sorry I can give you companies all over the world but they are not going to give you the one thing you need and that is a person that works on trust.
there are 1000’s maybe 10000000 of sharks out there and the one thing that stops them from me is trust, you must trust them and get family or friends to trust them and work from there,
suits want your money more then the sharks.
I like the post we men don’t have this problem but my girl has here property investment controlled by a trust and controlled by a suit.here to help
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Dear Gross Realisation and Dutchess,1. Technically speaking, a marriage which is based on mutual trust is one which is based on a conditional love(“I trust you only becuase I think/find you to be trustworthy in the first place”) and this is also likely to fail too.
2. Would one willingly trust a unreliable person in general? If NO, then the trust is just another form of conditional love. If yes, are we not knowingly, asking for trouble, ourselves?
3. Unconditional Love is not the same as trust. It has a much deeper, stronger and more effective basis to build a marriage foundation. Unconditional love entails and will usually involve loving our spouses much more than the way we are loving ourselves, to strive to continually protect and enhance our partner’s well-being and personal happiness to the extent of sacrificing our own where neccessary. In such kind of true love, the word/reference to selfislh and self-centred “I” does not actually exist, only “we”/”ours” and our higher love for our own partner (and our family) at all times.
4. For your kind update, please.
5. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Celivia:Look, I still stand by what I said, and:
If you HAVE to get married, go in it with 100% of what you have.If things do not work out, the worst thing that will happen is that there will automatically be a 50/50 split…
Is that so bad?
You win some, you lose some.Celivia
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Dear Celiva,1. Why not try to continue to stay “win-win” in the same marriage instead by learning to peacefully work out and properly resolve the marital problems for the sake of the entire family and not for my own selfish interest sake instead?
2. A true marriage is never meant to end up in dirvorce in the first place, has it been properly founded on the strong foundation of unconditional love in the first place.
3. For your kind update, please.
4. Thank you.
cheers,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Simmi:Hey, Life is like a business.
Simmi
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Dear Simmi,1. How sad if this is indeed what you presently and truly believe. Are you also further suggesting here that we should live our lives likewise?
2. As human beings, let us think and live as one intrinsically and unselfishly to make a better world for all to live in!; Let us not think of others or of oursevles, wholly in terms of $$$ or a some sort of a precious commodity to trade ourselves and human life with as in a business which you are suggesting here.
3. I definitely do not agree with your “selfish” way to life. Let us all live and let live in harmony and humbly with one another, always esteeming the others better ourselves and loving others as we love ourselves.
Cheers,
Kenneth KOHWe have one. We call it the disaster plan.
For us, facing the possible disaster of divorce and then working out a way to deal with it was both a sign of trust and part of building trust.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Cheers,
Ghoti
* * * * * * * * * *
Without music, life would be a mistake.
I don’t believe there is such a thing as unconditional love Kenkoh. (tho love for our kids might come close)
It must be wonderful to be so selfless and idealistic. Unfortunetly we have seen all too often what happens to the ‘nice guy’.
You can be the most hardworking, attentive, helpful wonderful husband in the world and you come home one day to an empty house and a letter explaining that wifey has left, been swept off her feet by some wicked libertine she met at the gym.
Are you saying you would continue to love yr wife in such a circumstance? nah….there are always conditions to love.
It’s all very well to go on about romance and trust but just remember seven yrs down the track when you.re eying off the pretty young secretary, ‘hell hath no fury like a woman scorned’. Wifey will want to hit you where it most hurts….the hip pocket! It wont be about greed for the goods, she wants REVENGE.
anyway im not cynical or bitter. I had a wonderful marriage to wonderful man but I cant help looking about and learning from the experiences of others. I’m a realist….not a cynic.
and then again Ive always rather liked a quote by Rachel Welsh: “No rich man is too old or too ugly”
Originally posted by Milly:I don’t believe there is such a thing as unconditional love Kenkoh. (tho love for our kids might come close)
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Dear Milly,1. Why?
2. If neccessary, we will agree to disagree then.
3. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHIf they are good enough for Donald Trump there good enough for me. As such I would have a pre nup, but then I see wealth over a multi generations and as such I’m going to do the best to ensure that. While some people might say I’m setting up for failure, I see it as setting up my future generations for greatness (as well as any charities that I set up).
Also I see pre nups as more of a plan of what happens if… rather than this is your share, that is my share.
As for…
With a broken marriage, a broken relationship and without a wife or/and with hurts and pains all over for all parties concerned and with always an absent parent for my child and having set up a poor live example and wrong role model for my own kids’ future marriage?”B.S. – Sorry but I have seen unhappy families where it is pointless for the parents to be together, but the remain “for the sake of the kids.”
So what do u want to see – 1) A marriage that might have screaming fights and or physical violence, which teaches kids it’s okay to be abusive? or 2) seperate with less fighting?
Think back as a kid I know what I would chose.Also there are more than enough single parent families where the kids have gone on to be extremly productive members of a socitey. As well as loving fathers/mothers (just recently a winer of the ‘Dad of the Year’ was from a sole parent family).
Hellman
Originally posted by Milly:
[brYou can be the most hardworking, attentive, helpful wonderful husband in the world and you come home one day to an empty house and a letter explaining that wifey has left, been swept off her feet by some wicked libertine she met at the gym.
Are you saying you would continue to love yr wife in such a circumstance? nah….there are always conditions to love.
It’s all very well to go on about romance and trust but just remember seven yrs down the track when you.re eying off the pretty young secretary, ‘hell hath no fury like a woman scorned’. Wifey will want to hit you where it most hurts….the hip pocket! It wont be about greed for the goods, she wants REVENGE.
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Dear Milly,1. Honestly, if a wife runs away with another new man , despite having a nice husband at home, it tells me of a marital problems left un-resolved for a certain period of time. Both the husband and wife are equally responsible for the marital problems. Please remember that it always takes 2 hands to clap in a marital situation.
2. To me, from the scenario painted, it does suggest there was no true unconditional love prevailing in the first place and that the marital problems was existing and was allowed to continue for a certain period of time before such an extra-marital affairs can take place.
3. If a man or woman is weak and succumb to temptations of a more charming new partner outside the marriage, I am sure if the dating process and courtship has been proper and thorough, such weakenesses can be easily be unveiled out during the courtship process. If the dating couple fails to take positive actions to properly resolve and help the partner to overcome the weaknesses accordingly and yet knowingly and intentionally proceeding further into marriage, then both parties are equally responsible for causing the problems and marital breakdown in the first place, will it not?
4. If we truly love a person unconditionally and our partner left us for someone esle, and is truly happy with the new partner, would we not grant them our blessings too? If we are unable to do that, then whose problems is this?
5. If our partner runs away with a new partner and subsequently return back to us, do we as a loving partner willingly learn to forgive and to forget and prepared to accept the erring party back into our marriage fold, wil we not if we truly love them unconditionally in the first place?
6. Why do partners wander away? Simply because not all the needs are properly satisfied by the other partner within the marriage/couple context.
Both the erring and the victimised partner are equally responsible for the marital problem/extra-marital affairs, do you not agree?7. An eye for an eye. This is the usual human response when one is being hurt.
8. But do we ask oursevles why do people choose to hurt us in the first place?…What can we learn about ourselves?
9. If the hurt is painful, do we still want to introduce more pain to our own beloved partner if we truly love him/her?
10… Or do we allow ourselves to further escalate the pain level by futher hurting one another again even more? Where unconditional love prevails, this will surely not happen.
11. For your kind update, please.
12. Thank you.
Cheers,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Milly:anyway im not cynical or bitter. I had a wonderful marriage to wonderful man but I cant help looking about and learning from the experiences of others. I’m a realist….not a cynic.
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Dear Milly,1. Have you truly wonder why does your marriage works while others do not?
2. What can we truly learn from your own wonderful marriage?
3. What do you see are its critical successful factors for your own good marriage?
4. Looking forward to hearing and learning from you please.
5. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by hellman:Also I see pre nups as more of a plan of what happens if… rather than this is your share, that is my share.
Hellman
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Dear Hellman,1. Would you not agree that in your thinking you have allowed this possibility that your future marriage will break down through planning the pre nup?
2. Wouldn’t it be more productive for the young couples to spend more time to learning how to make the marriage work and “fail-proof” their own marriage during their own dating/courtship process, then to spend time thinking about how to do when the marriage fails in the first place?
3. Why should the marriage fails in the first place? Do we then knowingly want to enter into a marriage when we know it will fail in the first place?
4. For your kind update and further comments/discussion, please.
5. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by hellman:Sorry but I have seen unhappy families where it is pointless for the parents to be together, but the remain “for the sake of the kids.”
So what do u want to see – 1) A marriage that might have screaming fights and or physical violence, which teaches kids it’s okay to be abusive? or 2) seperate with less fighting?
Think back as a kid I know what I would chose.Hellman
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Dear Hellman,1. Do the feuding parents need professional help in the first place?
2. You says, ” A marriage that might have screaming fights and or physical violence, which teaches kids it’s okay to be abusive?” Do you not agree that the abusive couples needs professional help in the first place if they are unable to calmly agree to disagree with one another in the first place and learn to contain their own anger?
For the safety and welfare of the child, shouldn’t the abusive parents be referred for professional counselling on their effective anger management or/and reported to the relvant authorities concerned?3. You says, “or 2) seperate with less fighting?” does this truly solve the problem for anyone especially for the feuding parents? Imagine what will happen when the fueding parents separated, re-married, started a new family again and then subsequently start to feud with their new partners again? Aren’t more people going to ge thurt again if the basic problem is lfet unresolved? What are you going to do then?
4. Sometimes, couples communicates through their quarrellings. So, who are we judge if they should separate or continued to live together as a married couple except by the affected parties themselves?
5. For your kind update, please.
6. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Milly:You can be the most hardworking, attentive, helpful wonderful husband in the world and you come home one day to an empty house and a letter explaining that wifey has left, been swept off her feet by some wicked libertine she met at the gym. “
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Dear Milly1. How can the husband be truly both so attentive to his wife and yet does not know that she is straying away?… Unless he is not truly as attentive as you would suggest him to be in the first place, honestly speaking.
2. Another possibility which this scenario can occur is when the husband is mistaken himself duirng all these while and that he is only loving his wife the way he thinks she would like him to love her, rather than the way she truly would like him to love her.
3. If the husband truly love his wife in the way that his wife truly want to be loved by her husband, will she run away with a new man suddenly? I do not think this is likely to be so.
4. Even if the wife should run away with another man suddenly, wouldn’t a loving husband want to wait for her to return back on her own free will subsequently if the husband is indeed loving his wife with true unconditional love inthe first place? Wouldn’t the loving husband quietly reflect over what have happened and ask what are the lesson he has to learn as a loving husband, so as to continue to make the marriage work in future?
5. For your kind update, please.
6. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOHOriginally posted by Milly:but just remember seven yrs down the track when you.re eying off the pretty young secretary, ‘hell hath no fury like a woman scorned’.
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Dear Milly,1. Oops, are you saying that the husband has not grown up to be able to appreciate his own wife’s inner beauty then, after 7 years of marriage and living together.
2. Perhaps, having children and setting up a family may make the man feel more needed/wanted by his wife/family such that he will be more prepared to committ himself more to the marriage and to his wife/family…
3. Where do we draw a line between a husband truly appreciating the beauty in a lady passing by and his lusting after her?
4…. Perhaps, the husband is not coming to terms with his own aging process or/and having problems accepting his own process. Perhaps the marital life is get routine and stale after 7 years of living together. How can the wife help in this case?
5. What must the wife do to prevent her husband from scorning her in the first place.
6. For your kind uodate, please.
7. Thank you.
regards,
Kenneth KOH
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