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  • Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    Does anyone have any suggestions?
    Located in Perth WA northern suburbs a family home worth approx $400k plus.
    Looking for an investor(s)wanting to invest in a home that would have guaranteed long term tennants with a guaranteed future buyback. The home is loved by the existing owners and is top quality. Rather than disrupt the family and relocate, one option for this family is to sell and rent back. Would there be anyone who would know of these type of investors and or put me in touch with this type of person wanting to do a private purchase of this nature on this quality home. The candidate would be ready to buy with guaranteed long term tennants, and possibly with a guaranteed buyback option down the track, say 2 to 5 years?[cap]

    Profile photo of shake-the-diseaseshake-the-disease
    Member
    @shake-the-disease
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 97

    One question, why would this family do this, what is in it for them?

    Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    To raise capital to get into an established business opportunity.

    Profile photo of PenPen
    Member
    @pen
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 28

    Is this home your home ?

    What rent would you be prepared to pay ?

    Profile photo of DazzlingDazzling
    Member
    @dazzling
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,150

    Hiya exec,

    Deals are about very specific numbers – not vague wafty notions.

    I bet you’ve got these numbers floating around in your head ;

    Price $ 450K
    Rent $ 300 p.w.
    Outgoings : Landlord’s a/c
    Bond : 4 weeks rental

    ….good luck in your search.

    These are the numbers I’ve got floating around in my head ;

    Price $ 300K
    Rent $ 750 p.w.
    Outgoings : Tenant’s a/c
    Bond : 4 weeks rental
    Bank guarantee signed over to L/L : 3 months rent

    ….call me tomorrow and the deal will be drawn up, subject to an inspection of the prop.

    I suspect you’ll agree, the vague notions get very quickly discarded and when it comes down to the nut-cutting of specific figures we go a little bit…sideways.

    Cheers,

    Dazzling

    “No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Can they not borrow against existing equity and keep the house?

    Terryw
    Discover Home Loans
    North Sydney
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of grossrealisationgrossrealisation
    Member
    @grossrealisation
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,031

    hi exec
    I am interested in this post.
    I won’t be as frank as dazzling put I have a couple of question.
    1. price of house
    2.rent
    3.term
    4. security of tenant
    5.out goings
    6.insurance
    7.buy back price
    if and when you answer the above I can give you an idea if I have a investor to lend.
    There is one question that I also need answering and that is why there are brokers on this site that can organise a finance package for this deal.
    terryw is one.
    I don’t want to sound demeaning but you are asking investors to look at a proposition of sell a house for ?? to keep for ?? at a rental of ?? for a lenght of time of ?? to purchase back at ??
    and would you be interested in this deal.
    As the name says I look at deals and if I went in with the above I wouldn’t even get a cup of coffee. sorry if I’m hard but that business you need to give us numbers.
    oh and after read my post maybe I will be as frank as dazzling.

    here to help

    Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    Sorry not to come back sooner.
    Thanks to those that have replied.
    I will respond to give answers as requested.
    Rent to be paid by strong secure tenants is $400.00 per week (negotiable slightly).
    The purchase price of home is $420k firm.
    Term for tenants to rent 2 years minimum
    As far as the security of the tenant, both Adults in family working permanent, good income and have already lived in the home a good number of years already.
    Tenant would pay half on rates and maintenance for rental duration… other outgoings in this private deal ie. insurance, electricity, gas, telephone fully paid by tenant, and remain billed to tenant.
    Buy-back option, option built-in.. Buy-back purchase price at two years, minimum $500k ie 9% capital growth.
    Bond 4 weeks rent
    Hope this helps for real interested persons only, not just tyre kickers.
    How quickly can we put this together???
    seller would prefer private dealings?

    Profile photo of DazzlingDazzling
    Member
    @dazzling
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,150

    When you say “strong secure tenants” that are only prepared to pay 4.95% gross yield, I can only presume you mean that you are physically fit with good locks on the doors…and aren’t commenting at all about your ability or willingness to pay a decent rent level.

    After the half rates (500) / half water rates (another 500) / half maintenance (who knows – say 1000…hope the water heater doesn’t die) and full land tax bill (1,000 or more depending on how you structure it) are deducted from the future Landlord’s cashflow stream, that 4.95% gross level will be well down to 4.2% for a proper nett yield. If my estimates are wrong…it may vary between 4.1 and 4.3%.

    If you borrow funds at 7%, this deal will strip about $ 12,000 out of your pocket every year. Whoever ‘helps you’, let’s hope they have deep pockets. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of people out there quite willing to chip in $ 230 p.w. for you to continue living in your own home. What a deal…where do I sign up ??

    Hmmm, I must be a tyre kicker.

    Sorry to disturb your sales pitch, I’ll bug out now and leave it to the people that love to invest in residential houses….beautiful.

    Cheers,

    Dazzling

    “No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”

    Profile photo of redwingredwing
    Participant
    @redwing
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 2,733

    There seems to be several of these deals out there where the owner/tenant wants the best of both worlds.

    Sometimes they want the cash for thier next PPoR that they are building and want to stay in the current PPoR whilst its being built..where is this… Ellenbrook, Landsdale?

    As I’ve seen a few of these deals on realestate.com.au

    REDWING

    “Money is a currency, like electricity and it requires momentum to make it Effective”
    Count The Currency With This Online Positive Cashflow Calculator

    Profile photo of munjymunjy
    Member
    @munjy
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 129

    I’m sure Dazz is right with his calculations. So, assuming that you lose $12,000 every year for two years, and assuming the tenant then decides to buy back the house for $500k, that means that CG is 68k?

    But I think on an investing forum such as this, most people will be wanting better yields especially considering the option to buy is with the tenant.

    I like this better. If the valuation for the house comes in at 420k, then we’ll go with a purchase price of 320k. Rent same, etc. Then buy back option in 2yrs for 450k.

    Seriously though, go with Terry’s suggestion. Find equity in the house.

    Munjy

    Profile photo of DazzlingDazzling
    Member
    @dazzling
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,150

    Couldn’t help myself. No Munjy, the picture looks a bit like this ;

    Purchase base for CGT

    Purchase Price : $ 420K
    Stamp Duty on Title : $ 16.7K
    All other acq costs : ~ $ 3 K

    Total cost to go into deal = $ 440 K

    Lose $ 12K p.a. (less tax benefit @ top rate) comes down to about $ 7K p.a. = $ 14K out of your pocket for the 2 years.

    Sell in 2 years for $ 500 K (assuming vendor / tenant…now turned purchaser can pay)

    500 – 440 = 60

    After the 50% discount, your CGT liability would take out another 14. (47% of 30)

    So, we’re down to 60 – 14 (CGT) – 14 (cf loss for 2 years)

    All up $ 32K left for you after exposing your 440K to two full years of risks ?? This is best case scenario.

    32/440 discounted over 2 years is a full return of ~ 3.6% compound per year. Great return hey !!!

    I just love this “firm” thing, cracks me up. [biggrin] Sounds like we are selling a dodgy ’77 Toyota Corona for $ 400 in the local rag.

    Does it look attractive to anyone, other than the vendor proposing it ?? You’d get more putting your money in the bank.

    “Would there be anyone who would know of these type of investors and or put me in touch with this type of person wanting to do a private purchase of this nature on this quality home.”….Me too, if anyone knows anyone at all who thinks 3.6% is really attractive given the risks, can ya let me know too. My whole portfolio is for sale for this type of return. Where are these investors, rather than these pesky tyre kickers ??[biggrin]

    Cheers,

    Dazzling

    “No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”

    Profile photo of jparsonsjparsons
    Member
    @jparsons
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 91

    Fast reply-

    No, dazzling,it does not look attractive. Hey! 77 Toyota Corona’s were far from Dodgey!

    J

    Jarrod.

    http://www.jenterprisegroup.com.au
    data.communications.entertainment systems

    Profile photo of grossrealisationgrossrealisation
    Member
    @grossrealisation
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,031

    hi all
    I read most post and I’ll give my bit to this one.I don’t think that I would invest in it unless the area has a growth rate of 15 to 20%
    and even then I haven’t had the question of why they wouldn’t lend themself.
    I can get very nice no doc, low doc, and any other type of doc loan and I think there are at least 6 other brokers that can do the same on the site.
    my advice stop playing around and sit down with a bank or broker and nut it out as the information currently for me as an investor doesn’t add up.
    you would do better with a westpac term deposit and no headaches.
    Are we recommending term deposits now.
    If any body reading this post does think that term deposits are the way to go email me I have a couple of syndicates that would like to hold your money.

    here to help

    Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    Gee… Thanks for your input Dazzling, it surely was dazzling and I think you need to ease-up on the sarcasm, the lowest form of wit, but that is my opinion and I guess you are entitled to yours too!!!.

    Often though, I enjoy different viewpoints even if they maybe incorrect, so I will present how I see this opportunity with some facts, particularly taking into consideration the rental income component and some tax advantages that may apply in buying investment properties. I am not an Accountant by the way, but my source of reference queries and answers have come from a qualified Accountant. I can`t be sure whether he is totally correct, but I am assuming he is.
    This could be a very likely situation and outcome. Please note this is an example only to highlight some of what has been presented so far in knocking this potential investment and I use this as an EXAMPLE ONLY, considering figures have been thrown around inadvertantly already in reply to my last post. The true picture would be dependant on the investors personal situation of course, and therfore I can only use generalities qualifying my examples as often it would certainly depend on taxable income brackets and real life situations etc..
    Yes, there would be stamp duty payable and this is the case on all property investments and loans, the higher the value the higher the stamp duty, but also higher the tax deduction, although stamp duties can be less and more in some states. On the advice given by an Accountant the stamp duty is most likely tax deductible in most cases. So that taken out of the base equation although certainly into consideration the real equation follows; Purely as an example only!!!
    Say an investor borrows the $420k at a 100% lend interest only loan at 7%pa. He or she may pay the S/D upfront for an immediate tax benefit.
    His gross outlay of $565 per week is to service the loan. The rent at say $400 to$425 per week, remembering the figure previously quoted was negotiable, so taking the liberty of using the latter in this example, this would be offsetting the servicing outlay. The investment becomes quickly a loss of $140 per week to service the debt, or outlay by the investor. This considered or commonly known as negative gearing, is a tax write off on their income in most cases.
    Assume the investors tax bracket is only 30%(noting this is for illstration purposes only), the net weekly outlay becomes $98 per week. If the bracket is 47% the net outlay becomes less.
    In return in this example if the property were sold by the investor at or just after 2 years, the 50% ruling would apply on capital gains tax(CGT). The return on capital value @ just over 9%pa compound would be the sale price quoted of $500k.
    To break this down first year growth in rounded figures is approx $38,000 and second year growth the same of $42,000 providing $80k profit before CGT. i.e.just over 9%pa Compund interest. If the investor can achieve 15% to 20%pa elsewhere, that is possibly where he or she should go, but they will be passing up certain guarantees, like the buyback price quoted, should the market fall out or go down in that time-frame. Although this probably is unlikely, it is worth consdering.
    At 30% tax bracket assumed, the total CGT liability would be (advised from an Accountant), with the 50% ruling applied to CGT equates to $12k in this example. This obviously comes from the profit of of $80k up front on capital growth over the 2 years and deducting the CGT liability, leaving a profit before any other expenses including outlays, of $68k in two years.
    With the outlay taken into account this profit is reduced by deducting the $140 per week outlay over 2 years which is $14,560 and then the 30% tax write off on that portion, of -$4,368.00 the total outlay before other expenses becomes $10,192 over the 2 years. For a return of $68k. This is the basis of the example and does not obviously allow for any other expenditure like stamp duty, maintenance and any other outgoings associated with investment properties that by the way are also tax deductible on the advice received by the Accountant most of the time if not all the time. So the bottom line in this possible scenario is a capital growth in dollar value after CGT of $68k in 2 years for a net outlay of $10,192 with the tax write off benefits applied. Is that not 6 times the outlay?
    Exposing the $420k on a property I would have thought the best security over 2 years.
    By the way, as this is to be a private sale, there would be no selling fees so there is also savings there. Other savings are the facts that the current vendor is prepared to negotiate, pay half maintenance costs which would be minimul assuming the gas hot water system was only replaced less than a year ago, and the home is relatively newer than a 77 toyota Corona and not valued at only $400.00. I do not see many investors sharing rates etc.. with there tenants on investment properties.
    I expect there could possibly be further negative replies to the examples I have used for illustration purposes only, but I won’t waste any more time on those. I trust though there maybe some interest shown from this viewpoint.
    Sorry this was so long, but hope any potential intersted parties have time to read.

    Profile photo of harpeauharpeau
    Member
    @harpeau
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 10

    Hi exec

    does the renter (former owner) enter into option to re-buy the place for 500k on a particular date (say 2 years later)

    if yes, what happens if they dont exercise that option to buy?

    or do they enter into a contract to compulsory buy at 500k on a fixed date? (perhaps that is not enforceable)

    thanks
    harpeau

    Profile photo of DazzlingDazzling
    Member
    @dazzling
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,150

    Hi exec,

    I’m not that intelligent when it comes to ‘book-learning and the like’, so I take it as a compliment that you credit me with any form of wit…whatever that is.

    “pay the S/D upfront for an immediate tax benefit.”….”my source of reference queries and answers have come from a qualified Accountant. I can`t be sure whether he is totally correct, but I am assuming he is.” Looks like you better revisit your assumption on this one. I was under the guise that it formed part of your CGT base and could not be claimed immediately.

    “Located in Perth WA northern suburbs a family home”….”although stamp duties can be less and more in some states.” Sorry exec, the 16.7K for stamp duty quoted was for current WA law. I took a wild guess that maybe you were talking about WA.

    “I do not see many investors sharing rates etc.. with there (sic) tenants on investment properties.” ….you really do need to get out more into the big bad world exec.

    Other than that, I thought your scenario was just tops. Once again, I am very interested also in finding investors who find deals like yours attractive.

    Cheers,

    Dazzling

    “No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”

    Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    Hi everyone,
    With refernce to my earlier post today, before the you know what hits the fan, I stand corrected on the Stamp Duty. It is not in fact tax deductible, even on an investment property. I won`t blame the Accountant entirely as I misinterpreted it and then double checked with his office again anyway as I thought about it. Why would a standard government charge be tax deductible anyway? All else remains the same. Sorry for any inconvenience if any caused, but you will recall that S/D applies on all investment property purchases anyway and should be considered of course, and I did take that out of my equations earlier anyway.
    Cheers Exec.

    Profile photo of execexec
    Member
    @exec
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 6

    Hi Harpeau, Yes I am still finding my feet with this forum so I apologise for not responding immediately as I sent another post in between yours and my last.
    In answer to your questions, I expect the new purchaser can execise the buy-back option when he or she wishes beyond the 2 year point, but the outline I received was somewhere between 2 to 5 years. As part of their offer to purchase they can set the conditions they wish to make on that offer. They would either be accepted, negotiated or declined as every seller has a right to do.
    Thanks for your interest and very good question.
    Regards,
    Exec.

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