- Originally posted by The Mortgage Adviser:
Marc,
I am very interested in your opinion as to seminars that present themselves as providing the ‘secret to success’ or educational content and. when you get there, they just want to sell you property or some ridiculous ‘system’ that will ‘guarantee success’.
It is clear that snake oil salesman exist, and so do Tram floggers, but such identities are well known. Do you buy into a suburb whitout research? What do you do after, complaining about the bad neighbours?
I read into this sort of threads a little bit further. People who need to vent their anger against others who are less than pure as the reason for their shortcomings or that pull their hair at the mention of the income made by people that are more or less prominent, should listen and watch themselvs doing all this and perhaps draw one or two conclusions from that.We are what WE think and do… not what others think and do. (leaned this at a seminar
“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
MarcPS
This site must be the only site in the whole wide world that when you sign in to post something, you are not realy signed in and must do so over and over unless you sign at the top of the page. This is my winge for the day.[cigar]Speaking in riddles does not answer the simple questions put forward. Not everyone can easily identify a ‘snake oil salesman’ nor do all the high cost seminar presenters deserve their fee.
In one breath, you are saying we should be able to identify the shonks while in the next you are saying we should stop whinging about the shonks. If we do the latter, how do we determine the former?
Talking in riddles is fun!
The Mortgage Adviser
http://www.themortgageadviser.com.au
[email protected]
Essential LinksM.A. To give an asnwer to the poster will do him no good. We could publish a spreadsheet with all the seminars and thier value for money, seasonly adjusted, and include historic variations and currency exchange yet still people would winge about the “bad” seminar presenters and their “evil” illgotten gains. What would be the point of that?
My point is that the winger has no intention to do better if good advice is coming his way, in fact he is not even interested in a practical answer and I venture to say he was probably never been scammed by no bad seminar presenter. Wingers need to winge because they are dissatisfied, yet contrary to what postive proactive dissatisfied people do, they want to remain in their comfort zone and ask for others to step back, that is the purpose of the winge. Take no action, show your victimhood and sit and wait for others to take action, whilst you winge more about all the other successful people and how they do not deserve what they have since as we all know success = dishonesty. No honest person can earn such outrageous amounts like $xxxk a year (xxx = your own bias and pre set limit)
There are bad seminars? Big whoop so what! There are also good one and plenty, grow up and learn to make proper choices. Got caught in a poor value for money one? Call yourself fortunate to be exposed to a new lesson. Take all you can that is positive, shake your sandals and keep on walking. If you do not use sandals and do not walk, what can I say to help? Very little.
PS
Thongs are not sandals[biggrin]“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
MarcI have conducted seminars in the past and I will be shortly conducting them on New Zealand. I am running a service. Our workshops will involve all aspests of investing in New Zealand. I do not consider this a scam. It means that people may learn something do it themselves or use my service. They will have met me in person and they can then determine wither my service is for them
Nigel Kibel
http://www.propertyknowhow.com.au
Australian and New Zealand Buyers advocate
service and seminarsNigel Kibel | Property Know How
http://propertyknowhow.com.au
Email Me | Phone MeWe have just launched a new website join our membership today
Nigel
Show people that you are a successful property investor in your own right by giving evidence of your portfolio. Show people how much you stand to make from the education, and that you don’t need the money to fund your investment program. Tell people exactly why you are doing this. If you feel this is too much of an ask, then I suggest your motives may not be all in the name of education.
I am not suggesting any seminars are scams, but I throw out the challenge to all presenters to prove their worth as indicated above. What is your motivation? Tell us the truth. Maybe it is to make money from seminars; maybe not. Tell us the truth and we will respect you more.
Wes.
wezwaz said:
“Show people … that you don’t need the money to fund your investment program. Tell people exactly why you are doing this.”
wez, I think I know where you’re coming from here… but the most annoying thing I have heard is when seminar presenters say, “I don’t need to do these seminars- I make [insert fabulous figure here] per hour, and I am only doing these seminars to HELP people.” I think that is insincere rubbish- the seminars are held to make money for the presenter- of course they are. To suggest otherwise is a marketing ploy.
If people want to present seminars and can find an audience for them- well, if they have found a unique product- no issue there. But it is the tales of “I don’t need your money, I am just doing this seminar to share the bucks around” stuff- I find that to be embarrassing.
I reckon presenters should wear a Trump hairdo- that’d pack ’em in. [biggrin]
kay henry
I have a feeling the follow may actually be steve under different user names: homefree, markusj, Kid, etc.
if you really believe that then why bother logging on to this site and reading it let alone posting and making negative commments. According to you Colbert the whole site has no integrity so why waste your time with it.
Why would you bother to contribute as it would just be like one giant online version of the “Truman Show” according to you.
Originally posted by kay henry:wezwaz said:
“Show people … that you don’t need the money to fund your investment program. Tell people exactly why you are doing this.”
wez, I think I know where you’re coming from here… but the most annoying thing I have heard is when seminar presenters say, “I don’t need to do these seminars- I make [insert fabulous figure here] per hour, and I am only doing these seminars to HELP people.” I think that is insincere rubbish- the seminars are held to make money for the presenter- of course they are. To suggest otherwise is a marketing ploy.
If people want to present seminars and can find an audience for them- well, if they have found a unique product- no issue there. But it is the tales of “I don’t need your money, I am just doing this seminar to share the bucks around” stuff- I find that to be embarrassing.
I reckon presenters should wear a Trump hairdo- that’d pack ’em in. [biggrin]
kay henry
I partly agree. (Not with the Trump hair do that does not merit any comments)
Yet if someone feeds people this line of the philanthropist seminar presenter, it is because that is precisely what people expect.
Why?… beats me.
Do teachers work for free? Do professors work for free? Is business and marketing knowledge less valuable because we must pay for it?
The image of the magnate that wants to re-pay his debt to the society (he clearly robbed to become a magnate) by letting some gold coin slip out of his hand for free so that the peasants can pick them up and come out of their misery is a product of the masses victim mentality.
To actually use this as a way to the seminar audience is pretty pathetic I admit.The only seminars that are free, are so because they are advertising for a product or service.
Wrong?
Not necessarily and depending on the product of course.A seminar that offers business or marketing knowledge must be paid for and the presenter should get more money out of the seminar than he would just by applying the information provided. If this is not the case, he is wasting his time since all he needs to do is stay home and apply what he knows. The seminar is a way to extract additional profit from his findings.
Wrong?
Why?
Do you offer rent free properties as a way to repay society from your success (obviously achieved by robbing your tenants from their hard earned dollars just to live there)
THere are plenty of shonky seminars and there are plenty of good ones.
There are lots of seminars that are good for me yet may be of no use to you, and vice versa. And there is a huge majority of people who attend perfectly good seminars yet put none into practice, either because they do not have the appropriate vehicle to do so or are just plain lazy, and will claim for the rest of their life to have been ripped off.“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
Marc“philanthropist seminar presenter” I like it! Maybe this could be adopted as general terminology in future discussions.
Philanthropist seminar presenter = “I don’t need the money. I just want to help people become wealthy, but I’ll still charge you thousands to discover my “secrets”. I am obligated to charge thousands because you won’t value the information otherwise.” What a load of tripe.
Many people have been sucked in in the past, but I think with forums like this everyone is becoming more educated and aware of the promotional hype that goes on. And even though seminar presentations have been debated at length, hopefully they will be discussed further to give people better perspective.
It may be harsh, but I think if you pass the 3 below criteria;
Not in jail
Over 18
Not legally insaneThen you are big enough and ugly enough to look after yourself. No-one is forcing anyone to go to these seminars, or indeed stay once they are there and no-one is forcing you to hand over money to anyone.
At some point in time, one has to stand up and be responsible for one’s actions.
Cheers,
Dazzling
“No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”
Good Point. I have never been to a semiar but I heard that most of them outline what is going to happen and then have morning tea. Then all the people who feel they have been scammed can leave and get their money back. Is this the case?
If so why all the song and dance? Just go along and leave if it was not what you thought it would be. Simple.
Noone is forcing you to stay.
Cheers
No, it ain’t that simple. Like a lot of things it sounds simple. For example, many ads claim that share trading can easily be learnt. Absolute rubbish. Share trading requires tremendous skill and years of learning to even have any hope of success. Success in the share market doesn’t automatically follow from years of hard work, sorry to say. People can dream though.
Re wealth seminars, please sit for a moment and think of young people just starting out in life, and imagine how they can easily be seduced by wild claims about becoming rich. Remember how “green” you were at that age. Have you always immediately recognised scams or overstated claims? Many others also are not worldly enough to instantly recognise these things. They may be innocently trying to better themselves without knowing exactly what they are getting into.
Yes, we have to educate ourselves and be vigilant. But let’s not endorse all seminar presenters as being squeaky clean and noble in their goals to educate us. Anyone raking in thousands per head for a few days is definitely making a lot of money, irrespective of whether they are successful investors or not.
Many wealth seminar presenters manipulate their audience for their own gain. I have been there to see it (at introductory presentations) and you hear the old lines trotted out all the time. I can see how it is very persuasive to people not in the know. Before you know it they’ve parted with thousands they can’t afford. I don’t see this as acceptable practice. I am not saying all presenters have the same motives; some may be genuine and others aren’t.
For those who go to a seminar and consider it a scam after a few minutes, why do they not get up and say as much instead of sitting their quietly?
I always ask questions that expose the scam or that the presenter cannot answer when I think they are scamming people!
The Mortgage Adviser
http://www.themortgageadviser.com.au
[email protected]
Essential LinksTwo reasons: Many people are too politely inculcated (indoctrinated?) to be able to do it.
More importantly, many scam seminars are too well constructed to permit such an interruption. In a hall of 1000 people how do you (unamplified) shout down, or even question, a wired up speaker with no compunction about giving equal air time?
It’s not that easy for most, and especially for the vulnerable which is what makes scam seminars despicable. Having said that, my wife and I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on seminars and have not regretted it at all. The worst value seminar I went on was ‘free’.
Some were certainly better value than others, but even where I thought I had been dudded, more value came out later than I had really paid for.
…..but even where I thought I had been dudded, more value came out later than I had really paid for.Aaah… I though no one would ever say it.
Among the cacophony,(Dazzling and other few honourable exception excluded) a tuned sentence by a tuned in person.
Isn’t it true that many go to music lessons before they buy their instrument and feel therefore cheated that they cannot play?
The day you grow and buy your saxophone, all of a sudden the lessons start making sense, the reed stops squealing and produces that nice tune….
Here, enjoy. http://www.sueterry.net/music.html[biggrin]
“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
MarcMarc
Please check your mailbox. I have sent a personal email.
Wes.
Hi Don and Liz
Yep. a lot of presenters do offer you money back. I have been to one seminar where you could get your money back Sunday lunch time if you thought it was a scam. That meant you had a day and a half free if you wanted, not bad from someone who just wanted to rip you off.Kerwyn
Kerwyn
So, a day and a half would be plenty of time to implement and test the strategies? How many people do you think would be too intimidated to ask for their money back? Some of the wording in these guarantees would make it difficult to get your money back. Do you think that when someone asks for their money back it is granted no questions asked?
OK, so five people…ten people maybe ask for their money back and it is granted. That’s five or ten out of a few hundred probably. Net profit from the seminar still stacks up very nicely.
Things are not always as they seem. Promising a money back guarantee is a marketing ploy to get people in, because it makes people think they have absolutely nothing to lose. If the seminar presenter rejects your claim, go to ASIC or OFT and see if they will help you. Not likely. Anyone who has had anything to do with these toothless tigers knows they are useless.
Originally posted by wezwaz:Kerwyn
OK, so five people…ten people maybe ask for their money back and it is granted. That’s five or ten out of a few hundred probably. Net profit from the seminar still stacks up very nicely.
Things are not always as they seem. Promising a money back guarantee is a marketing ploy to get people in, because it makes people think they have absolutely nothing to lose.
Hum, marketing ploy?
ploy, noun [C]
something that is done or said in order to get an advantage, often dishonestly:I disagree.
Warranties, Money back guarantees, advertising claims, writing books, dressing in Armani suit, are all marketing tools, certainly not ploys. Success and dishonesty are not related.When no one can say all seminars are squeaky clean, the implication here are that
a) it is dishonest to make money with seminars since they should have a philanthropic motivation.b) Seminars should be a guarantee of making money or they are a scam.
a, and b, are both misdirected thoughts.
Unfortunately it is a deep rooted anti-value that making money is somehow, something to be ashamed off and a) is just a consequence of such subconscious anti-value. On a similar line are the post that come up from time to time abut the host of this web site and his alleged obscure ulterior motives. Would it shock you if he made money directly or indirectly with this site? Does money stink?
b) Is just a preemptive excuse for our own failure. I run personal development groups and hear this over and over from many people usually from left wing political confession. When confronted with the principle of goal settings and “we are what we think” ideas, they start questioning on this line: “But if EVERYONE did what you say we should, everyone would be successful and everyone would be the CEO of the company and since this is not possible it means your principles do not work”, this is a scam.
Its the same with business seminars who teach marketing or investment strategies. They work, but guess what? surprise surprise, they do not work for all.
So are they a scam? Not for a minute, they work for the 5% that bother applying the principles learned and have the tenacity to stay in the market and overcome difficulties for the years ahead. Just 5%.
What would happen if EVERYONE did apply the principles and kept at it with winner’s tenacity?
Who cares! That would be science fiction not reality!That is why seminars can be run over and over and survive. Only 5% bother getting out of their comfort zone, the rest 95% will attend another seminar and another and perhaps more 5% will surge yet the rest will go home disillusioned that they were not able to purchase the magic pill that will turn them overnight in instant millionaires.
What a shame.
I for once am very happy that the success rate of seminars is so low, otherwise opportunities would be as scarce as hen teeth.One guy told me once, “If duplication worked we would be all in Amway, enlisted by the nurse at our birth”. How true, duplication does not work because people fail to apply it’s principles, yet certainly not because the concept is somehow flawed. It is the people we deal with that choose not to follow the marketing ideas, and when this is all fine since it is a free world, it is wrong to blame the presenter. Perhaps we should buy more mirrors?
Are all seminars good? Probably not. Are all seminars good for you? Even more improbable, so please research a bit before you jump in and then blame all seminars as bad.
Just my thoughts.“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
MarcMarc
You might be referring to some of my comments in your reply. If so, you are taking me out of context. Let’s put a few things straight.
There are guarantees that aren’t worth the paper they’re written on because they don’t get honoured. I have experienced this personally. Therefore, I would say some guarantees are marketing ploys (as you show with the definition).
At no stage have I ever indicated creating wealth is bad and I don’t think others visiting this site see it that way either. Afterall, it is one of my main goals in life.
Who said seminar presenters should have a philanthropic aim? I didn’t. That is often the presenter’s own claim. Tell me they don’t do a hard sell, e.g. “I’ll show you how to create money out of thin air and leave your job in the next 90 days.”
Give me good reasons why a two-day seminar/educational course is appropriately priced at $5,000, say, as opposed to $500. Don’t you think it is a little greedy to milk that much per person? I forgot. It is all the “secrets” we get to learn. That line is getting very tiring. Is it fair and reasonable for a presenter to gross $500,000 for two days of instruction that is readily available for nothing in a library?
I don’t see all seminars as scams. Some presenters are more honest than others. I have no doubt there is some sound education to be gained. However, there are no secrets and it shouldn’t cost a fortune to attain this information. Strategies presented have probably worked for someone at some time. But to present risky strategies that work occasionally under the right conditions as being the norm is a bit deceptive. Should the fact that someone implemented a risky strategy and it paid off be a reason to promote it as a valid means to create wealth? I doubt it.
Just to round out the current discussion, here is an example I can relate to:
Since I understand the mechanics of trading options, I could put together a seminar including all the glossy hype to suck people in. I charge participants $5,000 a head and get conservatively 100 to turn up. I walk away with $500,000 gross less some expenses – still a very tidy sum for a few days standing in front of a white board.
I have never traded an option in my life, but I know how they work. Knowing how options work and making money trading them are worlds apart. Still, I could make a heap of money training people to trade them. Now, let’s be honest, do you think this would be an honest way for me to make an exorbitant amount of money quickly?
There is one vital ingredient I forgot to mention. I lack the bravado and my ethics would not allow me to pull it off. Many presenters have bravado in spades and don’t mind compromising their ethics. Again, all presenters are not like this, before you get the wrong idea.
Marc, you should read the other post in this forum reviewing Ed Burton. Another sourpuss, or could there be an element of truth?
Wes.
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