lets clear something up right now!! i dont drive a BMW!! it was a turn of phrase to support an arguement…whew!! now thats clear my car is 14 years old and yes marc it might not make rational or even economic sense. the choice is a token one, a symbol of being uncomfortable with my middle class status….
guilt maybe a too stronger word. how about feeling ‘uncomfortable’…….
i think this is a healthy state, as it is a natural defence against being humanitarianly complacent..
a bit like having a tattoo to reming yourself that you were once young and wild!! (not that i think you have a tattoo!!)
i do admire people who fight for a cause. thats why i do admire the thought of Che Guevera, even though some of his methods and some of his ideaology i dont follow……..although i do have one of his t-shirts. last time i wore it was to a REM concert!!
ps – michael im impressed. like wayne i was a little confused but i think your ready to be signed up by ‘socialists anonomyous’ or ‘confused capitalists with a cause’. ill send you the forms!!! hehe
Aussie,
I also drive an old car. It’s my favourite anti-status symbol…a 1964 volkswagen beetle. I also am not comfortable being middle class…or any class for that matter.
It’s great! Everyone knows I’m a trader, yet I drive this old car; they leap to delusions over my level of success. That’s the way I like it. It ensures my friends are true friends.
It’s parts also come from 3rd world counties and is very frugal on juice.
You wouldn’t believe the people, who I thought were friends, who have drifted away and become distant, because of that car. Wierd! I still spend heaps of dough on other frivolities, just not on overt signs of wealth. Those things I put no value on.
But now I only have true friends and I’m glad I never had to go broke, or worse, to find out who they are.
Which brings me to a statement that Marc1 made earlier in the thread.
>>>>your spending will produce more wealth for you since such is the law of prosperity, spending will actually bring more in than you give out, but that is another story.<<<
Marc,
You should really re-evaluate what those stupid networking books you read are teaching you.
Lets apply the Socratic test to your statement above:
Your statement: “spending will actually bring more in than you give out.”
Q: Is it possible that one could spend, without it bringing in more?
A: Of course! there are examples of this strewn through out the suburbs. An example may be of someone who spends all his money on whores and booze. Will this bring him more money? Not likely!
Q: Is it possible for someone to actually spend less and to bring in more money?
A: Of course this can also be true. In my own example I am having my best year on the markets ever, yet my actual spending has probably halved from what it was 2 years ago.
So your “Law” of prosperity is clearly false, or at least imprecise and must be heavily modified.
Perhaps something like- “The right type of spending may actually bring more in than you give out” might be more acurate
I really wish you wouldn’t regurgitate the bulldust you read in “The Complete Idiot’s Guide on How to be a Wealth Guru” or whatever rubbish you read.
Don’t bother with the amatuer psycho-analysis either, otherwise I will hire someone to steal a lock of your hair and I’ll make a doll of you and stick pins in it!
Cheers
Whilst on the subject of left and right, here is an interesting article:
The Appeal of Facism
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FJ19Aa02.htmlCheers
Not spending money when you have it is anti-prosperous. It sends the message that if you spend you will lose it and be unable to recover it, it is a message of impotency.
A weak un-prosperous thought: “If I spend in a new car I lose the money”.
A powerful prosperous thought:”If I lose a million it does not matter I can make another million tomorrow.”Wayne, your post above, your qualifiers (stupid being one of them) and many other indicators, show you are set in your way of thinking and refuse to reason over the origin of the values that produce your thoughts.
You are free to do as you wish of course, but to stand on a soapbox and say the others are wrong or even stupid, does not help. If you think that the successful people who over a century have taken the time to write about how they made it to the top are wrong, all you need to do is write your own book.
Meantime let me say that driving an old anti-status car, is just one more way for you to say that there is something wrong about success and that you have to disguise it. Also it is your way to condemning others who happen to appreciate the pleasure of driving Alfa Romeo, Mercedes SL or Lotus. “I am more spiritual because I sacrifice myself in driving a bomb, HE is selfish, want’s to show off and there is probably something wrong wit the way he acquired his wealth”But hei…you know better and my sources are stupid so what is the point of this conversation right?
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
Marci liked the comparison to companies (ceo’s middle managers etc). i knew most large companies are psychotic but fascist aswell…..probably from the same tree!!!
like most things in life we (humans) dont have enough self awareness to know what we are doing!! and those who do are often labelled radicals and troublemakers….
embrace difference, embrace change and above all have compassion, !!!
marc – regarding the pleasure of driving a nice car. isnt funny how we convince ourselves that something as innane as driving a machine can be pleasurable. how people have survived for thousands of years without the PLEASURE of driving a lotus is beyond me!!
my point is – the pleasure is in your mind. its a status issue again and the pleasure comes from feeling superior, knowing that you are part of an exclusive group. i think this is dangerous. this way of thinking is high on your agenda and you dont even know it. its alot more honest and truthful to find pleasure in those things that are universal and non discriminatory……
we rationalise heaps of denagerous stuff..
if the rich were eating dirt – you would be surprised how many people would find it pleasurable….(why is abalone 50 x more expensive than mushrooms?? why is abalone more expensive than a capriciosa pizza??) its becasue abalone is expensive that its become the domain of asias rich. cause it shore dont taste any better!!!! ridiculous stuff!!!
another example – if your bedroom in your house was tiny i bet you would want a larger bedroom. yet this same size bedroom was on a luxury yacht -you would find the living conditions absolutely brilliant….sleep like a baby.
all about understanding yourself and what drives you. sorting the wheat from the chaffe..
marc – feel free to knock on my door if you need help in finding your warm, fuzzy side. c’mon whats your vice….too much ice cream, secretly like watching bay watch???
cheers
Originally posted by aussierogue:lets clear something up right now!! i don’t drive a BMW!! it was a turn of phrase to support an argument…whew!! now thats clear my car is 14 years old and yes Marc it might not make rational or even economic sense. the choice is a token one, a symbol of being uncomfortable with my middle class status….
guilt maybe a too stronger word. how about feeling uncomfortably…….
i think this is a healthy state, as it is a natural defence against being humanitarian complacent..
a bit like having a tattoo to reminding yourself that you were once young and wild!! (not that i think you have a tattoo!!)
i do admire people who fight for a cause. thats why i do admire the thought of Che Guevera, even though some of his methods and some of his ideology i don’t follow……..although i do have one of his t-shirts. last time i wore it was to a REM concert!!
Good answer Aussie, the car is understood to be a figure of speech, and so are my answers, they apply to other things besides cars.
What we choose to call “ours” be it a car, a house, a suit, a holiday, a boat, holiday house, a computer, each time we make a choice for ourselvs or our family, such choice reflects the value we place on us, what we think we “deserve”…(clearly in the subconscious realm OK?).
When many will be quick in finding an ethical dilemma on such thinking, the fact remains that if you choose second best for yourself when choosing a suit, you will choose second best when it comes to that crucial deal, when choosing spectacular success over just little success.
That is how our mind works, it has nothing to do with ethics or moral principles since the subconscious mind does not distinguish between “right” or “wrong”, real or imaginary. That is why we cry or laugh or are scared at the movies, even when we know all too well that it is all made up and no one dies, your subconscious mind does not.
I find intriguing how many people refuse to learn the working of their mind on matters of “belief”. It is almost like someone driving a car “on faith” refusing to pop the bonnet to see how it all works in case they lose the faith they had in the machinery to actualy work.
I am the first to say that we are God’s creation yet God gave us intelligence to be used, and in fact it is that intelligence (talent) given to us, that we will be haveing to respond for.
Dont (not you in particualr mind you) dig a hole and interr your talents, use them, wear them out, stretch them to the limit and a bit more![biggrin]
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcGuys,
I don’t know how you can equate being socially responsible with being self limiting.
Marc, for your info, I am a senior executive on a big 6-figure salary. I drive a new convertible and live in a $1M property on Sydney’s northern beaches. I own and wear Hugo Boss suits and eat at Sydney’s best restaurants. I do all of this and more, but still feel I am part of the human race and as such have concern for my fellow human beings. Just because I donate regularly to save the children and other charities, doesn’t mean I have self limiting beliefs. It means I believe in global equality and I do the little I can to help out. I also vote green and use a lot of my time to educate my friends on the problems with free markets and the global monetary institutions put in place post WWII. Incidentally, I am 3/4 through my MBA at the AGSM and on a High Distinction average. I topped Economics for my year, and understand intimately free market economies and how modern economic theory has evolved.
I will do everything I can to further my personal wealth within the economic constructs we currently operate. I just believe that they are geared towards favouring prosperous nations who are further up the food chain. At the same time as I am getting filthy rich, I am working to put controls on the constructs that allow me to do so. I’d happily forgo some of my wealth if I knew it was going to the poorer nations of the world, or to helping redress our environmental decline. Forgoing personal wealth within the current constructs will not achieve this end though, so why should I self limit.
I aim to get to the “abundance” stage of personal wealth whereby I can choose where my spare dollars go. The more I personally have, the more I can distribute it to worthwhile causes of my choosing. The govnernment won’t, so I will.
As I said earlier, I’m not a tree-hugging hippy. I’m just a socially responsible leftie who is actively working to bring down the neo-conservative far right governments in power at present, whilst simultaneously working as hard as I can to maximise my personal wealth.
I see absolutely no conflict of interests here or personal dilemma. I’m working on improving the playing field, but whilst it is an unfair field I will reap the benefits of it.
Cheers,
Michael.thats it – im gonna organise a polo game for charity. all the polo players will be wearing hemp shirts, will not be able to use whips (animal curelty), and the field will be chosen as long as there has been no clear felling!
all champaign with be organically produced and the cheese will have no artifical additives.
we might even let the poor people in at the end of the match to help clean up all the waste (recyclable, non recyclable)
tally ho!!
Aussierogue,
Now if only I knew how to ride a horse I’d be up for it!
I think that was probably a stab at me though and fair enough too. I am actually normally a modest guy and don’t consider myself wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I rarely, if ever, tell anyone about my financial state. I just wanted to explain to Marc how being a social leftist doesn’t necessarily mean you’re self limiting. Its hard to do that without illustrating how non-self limiting you are.
If I came across as arrogant, I apologise.
Cheers,
Michael.michael – you sound like a great bloke – you come across as earnest and as someone who really wants to do the best by others. admirable stuff. i guess the point i was making is that unlike yourself i dont have as many answers. i still have trouble tying my shoelaces…
im not sure many people can live as easily in the two worlds as you propose, but maybe your onto something. btw our backgrounds and circumstances sound very similar so i can empathise where yr coming from – i just cant rationalise as easy as you…..thats why i have premature grey hair!!
Originally posted by aussierogue:…thats why i have premature grey hair!!
I thought you were bald …[biggrin]
Michael, if you don’t feel guilty for your success, then you have dropped your self limiting baggage. Good for you! That is probably the main reason for such success.
Perhaps what you described as guilt earlier is rather a sense of responsiblity.
That is commendable and we should all feel responsible for what we know and do. I feel compelled to tell to the one that is interested, how we are all the product of our own doing, the result of our values thoughts and actions.I am glad you are doing well. Never think it is wrong to show what you have and never think you are at the top, or you will run out of targets..[biggrin] Hope you can soon make your income 7 figure!
Huluru
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcOriginally posted by Marc1:Not spending money when you have it is anti-prosperous. It sends the message that if you spend you will lose it and be unable to recover it, it is a message of impotency.
A weak un-prosperous thought: “If I spend in a new car I lose the money”.
A powerful prosperous thought:”If I lose a million it does not matter I can make another million tomorrow.”Wayne, your post above, your qualifiers (stupid being one of them) and many other indicators, show you are set in your way of thinking and refuse to reason over the origin of the values that produce your thoughts.
You are free to do as you wish of course, but to stand on a soapbox and say the others are wrong or even stupid, does not help. If you think that the successful people who over a century have taken the time to write about how they made it to the top are wrong, all you need to do is write your own book.
Meantime let me say that driving an old anti-status car, is just one more way for you to say that there is something wrong about success and that you have to disguise it. Also it is your way to condemning others who happen to appreciate the pleasure of driving Alfa Romeo, Mercedes SL or Lotus. “I am more spiritual because I sacrifice myself in driving a bomb, HE is selfish, want’s to show off and there is probably something wrong wit the way he acquired his wealth”But hei…you know better and my sources are stupid so what is the point of this conversation right?
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcTHAT DOES IT!
What’s your address and what do you look like? I need that lock of hair!
BTW- How wrong you are, my indoctrinated friend.
Cheers
BTW
Great posts Aussie and Micheal, I’m with you guys on all points.
Aussie, it just so happens I’m pretty handy on a horse, so sign me up for the polo match
Marc
>>>>A weak un-prosperous thought: “If I spend in a new car I lose the money”.
A powerful prosperous thought:”If I lose a million it does not matter I can make another million tomorrow.”Wayne, your post above, your qualifiers (stupid being one of them) and many other indicators, show you are set in your way of thinking and refuse to reason over the origin of the values that produce your thoughts.<<<
There you go with presumptions AGAIN.
The reason I drive an old car has nothing to do with money, I’ve probably spent more on the volkswagen than I would have on a new car.
It’s about rejecting middle class values which are fraught with insecurities and unsustainable habits. I am more interested in spiritual prosperity.
I have no problem with money. I love it and have plenty! I just don’t need to spend it on fancy cars and fancy houses.
Re Books: I’ve read most of them and most of them are stupid. I’ve personally seen more people emotionally damaged by these “priniples” than have helped prosperity.
The best wealth books I have ever read have nothing to do with wealth.
As an aside, for all of our married like we have taken in street kids and tried to give them a future. (Our stable full of 18 horses was the hook
) All have been a success and that has been our reward. (Well, Mrs. wayneL is the real saint. It was her idea.)But we never taught them directly about money and wealth, we just showed by example in our dealings with people. We did however teach them all the other virtues.
Guess what? Some of them have gone on to become wealthy because of the attitudes we have tried to instill. All have sorted out there lives and earn their own income. Not one on welfare which is where they were headed.
That has been worth more than any money we make.
So Marc before running around canning other peoples psychology with you amatuer analysis, try walking a mile in their shoes. Until then you know nothing.
It’s about rejecting middle class values which are fraught with insecurities and unsustainable habits. I am more interested in spiritual prosperity.Or in other words “Rich is evil, poor is virtuous”[biggrin]
Open the bonnet my friend and have a look inside, there is nothing wrong with leraning something new and you may increase your edge and buy 18 more horses and perhaps ( why not) a Saab…[cigar]
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
Marc[
Or in other words “Rich is evil, poor is virtuous”[biggrin]NO NO NO NO You are for the umpteenth time, making presumptions that are not valid, based on some crap you read. I would have thought that in your industry that LISTENING would be a desirable trait.
For the millionth time…Rich and poor have nothing to do with good or evil.
The two factors are unrelated. Money is merely a facilitator for greater influense of either.
And Saabs are a heap of S***. I used to have one, a 9000 turbo….top of the range at the time…the heated seats were nice in winter though.
You are missing the point. I’ve had all the fancy cars etc. Thats not what prosperity is about. Wide and often travelled is that road….
Try the bumpy track Marc, it is far more interesting.
Cheers
Originally posted by Michael Whyte:As I said earlier, I’m not a tree-hugging hippy. I’m just a socially responsible leftie who is actively working to bring down the neo-conservative far right governments in power at present, whilst simultaneously working as hard as I can to maximise my personal wealth.
I see absolutely no conflict of interests here or personal dilemma. I’m working on improving the playing field, but whilst it is an unfair field I will reap the benefits of it.
Cheers,
Michael.Michael… I am more and more convinced that you and I were twins separated at birth.[withstupid]
BTW this has been a most interesting thread to follow from both sides of the discission. Let’s have some of it please.
Cheers, Nobleone.
[biggrin]“Making mistakes is just another another tool for learning.”
For the millionth time…Rich and poor have nothing to do with good or evil.Huhu intersting, particularly coming from you.
Anyway, I am not trying to be disrespectfull, just that I find it rather amusing how some of you jump up and down at the mention of some basic principles of our subconcious in action.
It’s amazing that people can go through life denying the very existence of our subconcious mind, convinced that everything we do is a concious deliberate decision made after some logical reasonig.
The anti values rich is wrong poor is good, are stored in everyone’s subconcious mind and repeated every day since you get up untill you go to sleep by media friends, relatives, shopkeepers movies, books, preachers, folclore, kids stories, even the eco will produce some reinforcement of this and many other antivalues that end up in your subconcious without your permission.The study of our subconcious mind is very interesting and a great help for personal development, to understand why we make the choices we make, why we react to certain words and … I suppose also why we choose the cars we choose…[biggrin]
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
Marc>>the all-inclusive, forward looking left than the divisive, intollerant, short term looking right.<<
Just a query for Michael Whyte:
Does the “all inclusive, forward looking left” also include the “divisive, intollerant, short term looking right”? Or are they intolerant of the right?
Willem
Willem,
They’re included! [biggrin]
We lefties don’t necessarily appreciate the divisive and destructive activities of the right, but as we’re all-inclusive we believe they too should be protected from themselves.
As a leftie, I am concerned with the wellbeing of all humanity. This seems to be in complete contrast with the views of the far right neo-conservative hawks in the US who think that the only human lives worth protecting are their own. George Dubya even stated that “this is a fight to the end”, and something to the effect of “if we don’t win then we’re going to take the rest of you down with us”. They can’t accept that other doctrines or ideologies might be equal to their own, and believe this is a Christian “Jihad” to the end. Dubya’s a born again Christian who believes God is on his side.
I prefer Sting’s outlook illustrated by his lyrics “We share the same biology, regardless of ideology”. Somewhere along the line the US seem to have forgotten this. In their opinion, there is only ONE ideology and that’s the US one.
Dubya’s a scary dood…
Michael.
Originally posted by willem:>>the all-inclusive, forward looking left than the divisive, intollerant, short term looking right.<<
Just a query for Michael Whyte:
Does the “all inclusive, forward looking left” also include the “divisive, intollerant, short term looking right”? Or are they intolerant of the right?
Willem
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. If you don't have an account, you can register here.
