Hi There All,
Just wondering if any one can help…..Ths is the senario: Say you bought a corner house lot which you think is sub dividerble, ok you make an offer its accepted you put down low deposit ($1000) or so and get long terms (120 or so days).
this is my question…. how do submit plans etc during the settlement period for the subdivision when the property is not in you name? will the councils accept this?
in the mean time you clean up the front house to make presentable to sell off when settlement is over.the reason i ask is so that i could sell off the whole property when its settles or very soon after.
Thank you
John [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]I went through the same thing with my office premises which I rent. You simply need the registered owner’s signature on any documents submitted to the Council. It is a standard application and process.
Of course, you will also need the vendor’s approval to access the site and do what you want before settlement.
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Just build it in to your offer, ie that the vendor will fully coorporate with your application to council etc. Get your solicitor to work out the finer details.
Terryw
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exactly Terryw – if you don’t you may have to cross their palm with silver and you will be snookered!
wouldn’t recommend doing anything too physical prior to settlement, a lot of things can go wrong and a property isn’t sold until it is settled
Extensive list of ‘Off The Plan’ property available for sale in Perth.John – 0419 198 856
Interesting comments about being “snookered”.
I find that the power lays with the purchaser. The sale is effected at exchange for the purchaser because an order for specific performance (ie: forcing the vendor to sell the house) can be made based on an executed contract of sale.
The poor vendor will be lucky if they can keep the 10% deposit if the buyer pulls out.
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Hi John,
To subdivide a block you first need a planning permit. The subdivision process usually doesn’t occur until building has commenced. Therefore what you really need to know is, can you start the planning process prior to settlement.
The answer is most certainly “Yes”. You must “notify” the land owner of the application, but you do not need their permission.
A tactic that is frequently used by developers is to take out an option to buy, dependent on their success in gaining approval for whatever it is they want to build.
I hope this helps.
Regards
AlistairAlistair,
I am not certain under which Council you operate, but the three that I deal with all require registered owners signature on any application to make changes to their property.
Remember, the property is still legally the vendors’ until settlement. What you are suggesting is crazy! I am interested to see what you define as “notify”…
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
My experience has been the same as yours Robert – the council have insisted that the land owner sign the application… regardless of me holding an unconditional contract. One guy I know paid a seller $1000 to sign a form (I can’t recall the full story) – all this would be avoidable if you put it in as a condition of your offer
Extensive list of ‘Off The Plan’ property available for sale in Perth.John – 0419 198 856
John & Robert,
I’m not sure which states you are both in, and things might differ between states (although I would guess there is no difference). I am in Victoria and the only stipulation here is that you notify the property owner. This is the same in all local Government areas.
There can be no way for the granting of a permit to have a detrimental effect on a property owner. The applicant pays for it (whoever they are), and it does not grant them a right to do the development, unless they control the land. In fact the only possible effect for the owner is positive, as the granting of a permit will generally increase the value of their land.
Of course, if you do not have the agreement of the landowner, and they make a formal objection, you are not in a particularly good position. However, their written consent is definately not a requirement.
With regards to my experience in this matter, I own a town planning consultancy in partnership with my father. We operate throughout Victoria on projects that range in size from dual occs to multi-story apartments, shopping centres and numerous other large developments. I guess what I am trying to convey to you is that I have some experience in this matter.
Regards
AlistairThat sort of approval sounds like a ‘Clayton’s’ approval – the approval you have when you don’t have an approval.
Settlements do not always take place as expected and transactions sometimes fall over at the 11th hour. I would not like to be the Council allowing someone to do something to my land without my permission whether it increased value or not. I may not like what they did.
FYI, not all renovations or changes to land ADD value. Some people undertake some stupid moves!!!
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Interestingly, in Melbourne, a DA is called a TP (Town Planning) application. Regarding requirements to get one approved, one of the planners stated that approval from the owner is required IN WRITING in any form. She said a letter would suffice.
This to me sounds remarkably like a signature is required.
Oh yeah, she also confirmed that the person who appears on the title must be the person giving their approval with their signature.
Which consultancy did you own? I think I might stay away. I would choose to believe a Planner in Melbourne Council over some words on the internet.
Sorry if this offends.
Confirm for yourself as I always do…
City of Melbourne
Town Hall, Swanston Street, Melbourne
Hotline: (03) 9658 9658
[email protected]Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Hi Robert,
As per your request my company is F. R. Perry & Associates P/L. You can see ou web page at http://www.town-planning.com.au . I’m not trying to hide my identity, I simply don’t always post it because I don’t come on here to advertise.
You can take the word of somebody who answers an enquiry line if you like, but first have a look at the CV’s of some of our planners and then tell me who are likely to be more qualified.
I should add that as well as decades of experience, one of our planners helped write Rescode (The statewide code for resedential development), and was employed, during its introduction, to train local councils on how to apply it.
I will repeat again “You don’t need written consent from the owner, you only have to provide evidence that you have notified them”
Robert, I’m definately not offended by anything you have said. In fact I find your posts quite entertaining. You are wrong in this case however and should rrealise that you are outside of your area of expertise.
Regards
AlistairAlistair,
There is no doubt in my mind that I am outside my area of expertise. That is why I checked. I spoke with a Planner, not an enquiry line operator.
I think our definition of ‘evidence’ is what differes. To me, and it seems the Planner at Melbourne Council, ‘evidence’ requires the owners signature on an approval to proceed. How do you provide ‘evidence’ that you have notified the owner?
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Robert,
You simply have to state on the application form that you have notified the owner. You don’t need anything signed.
I would also like to point out that when you contact a council, whether in person or by phone, the person you speak to is usually at the very bottom of the pyramid, often a student planner or recent graduate. You would do well not to take what they say as gospel.
Regards
AlistairRobert,
I am emailing you a pro forma for a planning application so you can see what ifo you have to provide.
Regards
Alistairthanks for that info Alistair – it seems if I am ever in that situation again there may be alternatives. Still could avoid all this debate by putting it on the offer in the first place!
Extensive list of ‘Off The Plan’ property available for sale in Perth.John – 0419 198 856
Thanks Alistair,
It is quite interesting to see that they believe the applicant in such a situation.
I better be careful if I ever buy anything in Victoria. It would never be allowed in NSW. It gives rise to too much litigation if something went wrong.
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage AdviserM: 0414 347 771
E: [email protected]
W: http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter: See – http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.au/index_files/newsletter.htm
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty Ltd
Thanks for the feed back all!!!
its been much appreciated!
it’s been a big help!In NSW you have to obtain the registered owner’s permission before submitting a DA.
Most local council’s DA forms include a space for the owner’s signature where the owner is not the applicant.
A couple of years ago I asked the council I was dealing with at the time why this was necessary (I was looking after a tenancy refurbishment, the owners had no problems with it and it was very time consuming getting all three owners’ original signatures on the form – hence my enquiry).
Their response was that, apart from being a legislative requirement (in NSW), it stopped people lodging fictitious DA’s that may lead to problems for the owner.
As an example;
I could lodge a DA on someone else’s property saying that I wanted to modify the roofing line and paint the outside pink.
If that person was trying to sell their property at the time and the prospective purchasers were doing their due diligence, it might have an affect on the price they would offer if they thought they had to, for example, repaint the house in a more suitable colour.I could lodge such a DA just to be a trouble maker or I could have some other motive for making things difficult for the vendor.
Even if the DA was actually approved, you would not be able to undertake any of the “proposed” works but it could still cause some short term headaches for the real owner.
Another reason for councils requiring the owner’s signature is that they (the councils) don’t want to be caught in the middle of a tenant/landlord dispute.
This can happen when a tenant wants to do some work to their leased premises that the owner doesn’t want (a large sign that is not in keeping with the rest of the complex for example). The sign might be approved by the local council but is not allowed under the terms of the lease with the owner. There is then a dispute between landlord and tenant over the rights to erect the new sign (“But council has approved it”) and the council wants to stay right out of it all.
I know the above seems fairly obvious that the tenant doesn’t have any rights based on their lease with the landlord – but you would be surprised how unclear some leases are and how much of a grey area it becomes when some other form of approval has been obtained.
Disclaimer 1: For those people in states with less restrictive rules regarding owner’s authorities, please don’t try and use my example above for your own nefarious purposes. Apart from being highly unethical, when (not “if”) you get found out you will likely be up for some sort of damages claim.
Disclaimer 2: I have nothing against the colour pink in general, I just wouldn’t paint my house that way [biggrin]
Regards,
Clint
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