marc 1 – i noticed you didnt sign off your last post with a LATIN quote as is your liking.
Aussie, I’m very upset that you weren’t fortunate enough to attend a private school. No need to carry a chip on your shoulder my dear fellow. The world isn’t really that bad.
Hey Aussierogue,
Do you think Yorker has missed reading part of this thread or what? lol
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes*
Ok ok Aussie, I answer your post too … [cap]
I thought about your post this morning after reading it, and thought of answer it this way:
There are two class of people in the world (according to Marc’s classification, not Guttenberg nor Linnaeo)**
The IF and the THEN types.“IF” people are always thinking of clever ways that humanity could be better of IF only this or that, and they will always tell you that your ideas are not that good because they do not apply to ALL.
“THEN” people are the one that think up ways for the person to survive and thrive according to circumstances. They observe events and THEN act to achieve a purpose according to such shifting events that unfold.
The ‘IF’ are in the know of all the things that are happening and how things could be better IF only this or that.
The ‘THEN’ are in the know of all the things that are happening and how to progress based on such happenings.
IFs tend to blame outside events for their problems, THEN see problems as the result of personal miscalculations in their assessment of external events.
IFs can only take action becoming politicians and leaders, but since those positions are scarce, IF are usually rather frustrated because outside events cannot be changed unless the government or the boss or the parents etc etc
Socialist and communist parties, unions and clubs are full of IF and they certainly make for committed and fierce opponents.THENs can take action anytime every time in any place and under any circumstances since they know all they need to change and shape is themselves for things to start happening. THEN are usually more the silent achiever type but they do make for committed and successful leaders if they can see it would be profitable for their set goals.
IF are extremely altruistic in principle but rather inefficient in making altruistic things happen since…you know… things would be so much better if only …
THEN are also altruistic but they have a pragmatic approach to it. They think that in order to help others they must help themselves first and such makes for a much more practical situation where achievement is followed by further action and further achievement.
Well you may already know if you are an IF or a THEN… or do you? What? You would know IF I only …… [biggrin]
………………….
* If you can read this you are overeducated
** Guttenberg and Linnaeus were the botanist who started the classification of plants.May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcBefore you get carried Away, Marc…
http://www.mindsack.com/?z=131 …
See? We can all do Latin… Magister Mundi sum!
kay henry
Hehe very funny, Kay!
)
Soon, Sic faciunt omnes.Marc, I enjoy seeing your POV, but I have to disagree with you when you say:
Any kid possessing all his thinking faculties intact, can be in theory be tought to become any profession you like. You cannot make him brilliant, but you can make him a functional doctor, solicitor, dentist, vet, plumber, carpenter, and even a musician, writer painter or sculptor.
and
The difference is purely economic.
It sounds like you believe that every child comes into the world like a blanc sheet of paper (how’s that in Latin again ?)
and that parents (Probably the THEN parents, I guess?) can just write the child’s future success onto that paper, throw money at it and knead that kid into the success they want for the kid.I don’t believe that this can be done, Marc.
Since when are kids not individuals with their own likes and dislikes?
I think it is even dangerous to be convinced that this can be done. How will it make kids feel if they cannot or don’t wanna live up to the parents’ expectations?I agree with Kay, where she says:
I think another point is that… it doesn’t matter how much money you pay for your kid’s education- a child who isn’t very academically skilled, can’t be made so by throwing money into their education. Educational outcomes will often be determined by the child themselves.I agree because I often have seen this happen- parents tossing extreme amounts of money into their child’s education (private school and armies of private tutors) to no avail.
Not because these kids were not intelligent, but because they had no academic interest.You cannot make a kid achieve 100% marks (or maybe even 60% marks) if the kid does not want to do the work and has no interest, no matter how much money you spend on her/his education.
But maybe I’m wrong and maybe you could, if only…..
Celivia
Celvia. The idea that any kid can be made into anything we like is an hypothesis.
Not that it hasn’t been done, but I never proposed it as a solution to education. I just say that it is possible, even when highly impractical.Look at two extremes. One no school, no tuition, nothing the kid is left at his own will, he can become a scientist if he decides to go to a library and teach himself or a bum living on the streets.
The other extreme, you rise him in a bubble, with an army of tutors specialist of all sorts that can turn him into a poet, painter, world athlete or rocket scientist, you decide for him.
Both are perfectly plausible scenarios.
School is in between.
Some schools far too close to the first proposition, other schools attempting to emulate the second.The above is a purely economic proposition, the fact that some kids may refuse to participate is immaterial. (This would be an IF persons thinking)
In the real world, parents must take part in the above scenario because they don’t have enough lack of ethics for the first proposition nor unlimited money for the second.
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcPS
KayOptimus loquere silentium est
Parents teach kids more than schools ever could.
literate, cultured, socially aware and enlightened parents will raise literate, cultured socially aware and enlightened kids – bright and talented kids with self-esteem and compassion – and *they* will be the ones who do well in school, not to mention do well in life!! – and along the way those kind of kids are the ones who get scholarships to whatever their parents consider are the ‘best’ schools – no matter what the parents earn.
School schmool.
joy to the world
I would imagine that the pressure some parents put on their kids to perform academically also contributes to the suicide rate of teenagers in Australia. I have a friend whose parents thought academia was the most important thing in the world. Her sister hung herself a few days after her 17th birthday- due to the academic pressures. I am sure a little less focus on her doing what her parents wanted, may have kept her alive, and may have prevented her sister finding her in the house.
Let’s put this stuff in perspective. School and study is only a part of life. Young people being happy and being able to find their own way, even if it isn’t their parents’ way, cannot be underestimated.
And welcome back, Celivia :o) You’ve been missed.
kay henry
Marc – interesting post. Send me a list of IF and THEN people that we all know – and i will consider you postion.
I do think your hypothesis is a bit basic and would only be written by someone who considers themselves a THEN person.
Personally – i think one should be flexible. A THEN person sometimes and a IF person other times. Theres a time for everything under the sun.
gaudiamus igatur, juvunes dum sumus.
It sounds like you believe that every child comes into the world like a blanc sheet of paper (how’s that in Latin again ?)
Oh I remember now I read this over. What I meant was to say was “tabula rasa”.
Just wanted to check your latin skills, Marc)
Nah just joking.That’s terrible, Kay, about your friend’s sister. Unfortunately, this happens more than one might think.
Anyway, talking about public schools- I am very satisfied with the care and education my children received/are receiving at their public schools.
Of course, there is always room for improvement at any school.Celivia
I do think your hypothesis is a bit basic and would only be written by someone who considers themselves a THEN person.Ha ha Aussie, I’m sorry I did not elaborate enough, after all I came up with this during my lunch time in between bites of Japanese Teriyaki, whilst battling with some very short wari-bashi.
Yet the concept is not new.
Socialism says that society improves when the system changes, Christianity says that society improves when the person changes.
There are plus and minus from both sides.The IF person would say his ideas are focused on the greater good and that the THEN (or should I call it the THEREFORE person?) is egotistic since he thinks only in himself.
There is some truth in the above just as there is truth in the fact that altruism without anything to give is sort of a moot cause, and that prosperity without the compulsion to pass it on is sterile.
Of course we all have some in us, I use to be a convincing IF person when I was in the union movement dragging people to strikes standing on a desk.
A balance? Perhaps the balance would be in recognising what we do when we do it and why we do it, rather than beating ourselves for it.Gaudeamus etc…
Post jucundum juventutem
Post molestam senectutem
Nos habebit humus.[confused2] Not a very positive conclusion …May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
Marcgood one marc! i actually dont know what the words mean but i sang it many times at school!! and it sings well if you know what i mean.
http://www.arach.net.au/~algernon/gaudeamus/
Gaudeamus igitur
Juvenes dum sumus
Post jucundum juventutem
Post molestam senectutem
Nos habebit humus.Let us rejoice therefore
While we are young.
After a pleasant youth
After a troublesome old age
The earth will have us.Ubi sunt qui ante nos
In mundo fuere?
Vadite ad superos
Transite in inferos
Hos si vis videre.Where are they
Who were in the world before us?
You may cross over to heaven
You may go to hell
If you wish to see them.Vita nostra brevis est
Brevi finietur.
Venit mors velociter
Rapit nos atrociter
Nemini parcetur.Our life is brief
It will be finished shortly.
Death comes quickly
Atrociously, it snatches us away.
No one is spared.Vivat academia
Vivant professores
Vivat membrum quodlibet
Vivat membra quaelibet
Semper sint in flore.Long live the academy!
Long live the teachers!
Long live each male student!
Long live each female student!
May they always flourish!Vivant omnes virgines
Faciles, formosae.
Vivant et mulieres
Tenerae amabiles
Bonae laboriosae.Long live all maidens
Easy and beautiful!
Long live mature women also,
Tender and loveable
And full of good labor.Vivant et republica
et qui illam regit.
Vivat nostra civitas,
Maecenatum caritas
Quae nos hic protegit.Long live the State
And the One who rules it!
Long live our City
And the charity of benefactors
Which protects us here!Pereat tristitia,
Pereant osores.
Pereat diabolus,
Quivis antiburschius
Atque irrisores!Perish sadness,
Perish haters.
Perish the devil,
Whoever is against the student fraternity,
As well those who mock us!Quis confluxus hodie
Academicorum?
E longinquo convenerunt,
Protinusque successerunt
In commune forum.Who has gathered now
Of the university?
They gather from long distances,
Immediately joining
Our common forum.Vivat nostra societas,
Vivant studiosi!
Crescat una veritas,
Floreat fraternitas,
Patriae prosperitas.Long live our fellowship,
Long live the studious!
May truth and honesty thrive,
Flourish with our fraternity,
And our homeland be prosperous.Alma Mater floreat,
Quae nos educavit;
Caros et commilitones,
Dissitas in regiones
Sparsos, congregavit.May our Alma Mater thrive,
That which educated us;
Dear ones and comrades,
Who we let scatter afar,
Let us assemble.(vers. C. W. Kindeleben 1781)
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcOkay look, I have been following this thread for some time, and I can’t for the life of me, figure out where sense/sensibility took leave of absence!!!!
What EXACTLY is the point of the Latin lessons here, and what are we agreeing/disagreeing on??? [blink]
Jo
jo – good point. the only latin i can quote are the words to the above song. we used to sing it every week at assembly, then at speech night and occassionaly when the lads get together for an ale or two.
if you think that sounds like one of those preppy movies where all the frat boys get together and sing silly songs, wearing turtle neck sweaters with girlfriends called Pippa and Feefee – well your right. so as a protrest i only sing it by myself in the shower.
must admit it sounded great when 1000 young men belt it out!! but dont tell anyone i told you that..
)
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