gatsby – very insightful re the hamlet stuff. these are huge philosophical questiones here regarding happiness, ethics, duty, igniorance etc etc.
a friend recently had a bit off a hamlet moment. he is a great bloke who thinks about the world and his position in it. but moaned recently that despite all his good intentions he sees ignorant nasty people around him who seem to very happy with there lot in life. they dont suffer the same level of internal conflict as he does. you know the annoying types who dont ‘think’ much who seem to always get a great nights sleep etc etc.(toung in cheek). so he was wondering ‘whats the point’. whats the point caring? whats the point worrying? whats the ppoint learning? whats the point trying to do the right thing??? when the guy living next to you doesnt give a stuff but seems just as happy??
i told him that there is a huge reason that he shouldnt give up. and thats because we dont live in a bubble. if our lack of caring, lack of ethics, lack of understanding didnt effect anyone else then i would agree with him. but the fact is tthat althouygh ignorance may not affect your happiness it will affect the happiness of those around you!! and thats huge thing. ignorance creates prejudice.
if you go through life not hurting other (wch most of the time if you are ignorant will happen w/out you even knowing) then you have succeeded in being a good citizen, whether you are happy or not this is a great achievement.
life x – on the bill gates thing. i was a broker for a particular guy who was fairly unethical in his dealings and after a few beers one night i asked him if he had any high ideals or was it just about making money. he said to me that part of his aim was that when he had a net wealth of 5 million then like bill gates he will then give more to charity but in the mntime he was gonna do everything possible and push the ethical boundaries to get there first. the ethics can come after he reaches his financial goal.
guess what?? five years later he is rich and still no sign of better ethical behaviour. the more we have the less likely we are to give it away. the more we have the more we want. sure when you have 50 billion whats 20 billion amongst mates but i think that if we were all to wait until we were well off before we start to be good citizens than we are missing the point.
rogue,
My current favourite guru/cult leader, roy McDonald, says:
“There is no right or wrong- only outcomes.” [baaa]
kay henry
kay – nice one..
i have the same problem – too many outcomes and not enuf incomes….
I agree with aussierogue, et al,
-Unto thyself,
Be True.
‘Hamlet’PS. Uuuumgh,…I forgot to mention LifeX that at the end of the play, Hamlet dies! But don’t let that put you off because the whole lot Karck it with him!
I bought a washing machine the other day and had to sit down and read the instruction manual so i could operate it correctly.
I belive human beings also came with an instruction manual…produced by their creator.
Besides ‘Shakes’, what do others use as their ‘instruction manual ?’
I like to use and interpret actual life experiences I have had or others have had rather than theories or opinions.[angel]
lifexperience
Well, LifeX, guess that knocks out the Bible and other such books- you know, the old ones.
Everything’s an opinion or a theory.
kay henry
Kay,
Yup, such a life path does have little external guidance but I believe opens up many more possibilities.Just look at how long theories and opinions last in science until an example is found that blows it out of the water.
[angel]
lifexperience
Yeah, LifeX :o)
Theories = testable
Opinions = all ours :o)
Facts = proveable, I guess- dunno
One person’s fact (ie their religion, as an example) is another person’s opinion.kay henry
Kay,
I also have a problem with “facts”[cowboy2]
I don’t know that you can ever 100% be certain about anything. You can play on the probability of certain incidents happening again (which is how science works), but you can never know for sure.
So you only ever have a handful of incidents on which to test theories.
So anything may and can happen (murphys law)
Perpetual questioning goesaround in circles, but if you want to take the next step and actually do something then, at the end of the day you still need something to go on.
I don’t know if there is ever a right answer or not.
But I am slowly working out my own guides as i go, with the help of friendly people on this forum and my own conviction (hopes) that this is not all a dream.
cheers
[drummer]
lifexperience
Originally posted by WallFlower:
besides ‘Shakes’, what do others use as their ‘instruction manual ?’I lost mine, so now I just press buttons to find out what they do.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.– Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
lol,
lifexperience
As I see it Lifey boy, the ‘Good book’ has a comprehensive collection of ‘experiences’ from people from all walks of life, Kings, captains, shepheards, business man, doctors, lawyers, carpenters,priest,soilders,harlots,wives,mothers,
merchants, apple eaters etc… even though the events occurred some 2000+ years ago, the nature of human beings remain the same and thus those lessons are still applicable.Wallie girl,
If you insist on drawing religion into this philosophical discussion, then I would be foolish to nay say any particular religious text (there are thousands of texts from many religions) without studying it in it’s entirety.Does the bible have part numbers for your particular washing machine?
[curtain]lifexperience
It makes sense to me that only the creator can write the appropriate instruction manual. For washing machines or otherwise…
There is only one creator.
I know that if I’d followed God’s instructions for living (as outlined in the Bible) I would have saved myself a whole truckload of grief over my lifetime. That is my belief for what it is worth to the debate.
The basic philosophy that I outlined in my first post on this thread was the result of reading a book called “Boundaries – when to say YES, when to say NO, to take control of your life” by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr John Townsend. They are christian authors and there are many references to the Bible throughout the book. However even if you choose to omit these from the text it is still a really good read if you are questioning where to “draw the line” either with yourself or with other poeple.
Cheers
SonjaWow – how great it is to read all of your opinions. Thanks for sharing.
LifeX and Kay, excuse my flat scientific approach to your ideas about proving facts, but I have always been taught that you can never prove anything, you can only find evidence to support a hypothesis. And when you look back on history, you will find that this is true. We have been wrong many many times when were so ‘certain’ about something.
Aussierogue, you are spot on about us not living in a bubble. You know the way one overtly negative person can manage to make you pissed off all day? I think happiness and kindness work in the same way. A little smile can go a long way.
[biggrin]
On that note, don’t you all feel absolutely compelled to be honest with someone who is clearly being totally open and honest with you?
And further to this, if you know someone is expecting you to be honest/ethical/whatever, don’t you also feel an even greater obligation to be that way?
Can any of you really screw over someone who is relying on you to do the ethical thing?
Go on, spill the beans, cut my idealism down right in front of me!! [wideeyed]
Ali G
Ali,
I was kind of meaning “facts” like – the current Federal Reserve interest rate, the price I paid for my IP’s etc. I don’t really mean bigger things. Sonja, for example, just made a statement that is “fact” for her- there is one creator. That’s not the fact that I was speaking of. I am not really into those kinds of truths- I am a postmodernist- I question grand narratives.
AliG, I am the same in all my dealings- honest. If someone is not honest with me, then I retreat. If I am dealing with someone unscrupulous, I don’t decide to be unscrupulous too- I can’t change like that. For me, it’s not “be honest with the honest people, and dishonest with the dishonest ones.” That would be me being dishonest half the time. I only know one way to be, and would be wracked with guilt if I behaved differently (former Catholic)
))kay henry
Thanks Kay for clearing up what you meant by ‘facts’… I went off on another tangent. It happens! The Fed Reserve interest rate certainly is a fact, no debating that!!
As for being honest – I am as you are Kay – although I wonder at times whether this puts you behind the 8-ball because other people out there are getting ahead by being dishonest. Not that that is enough for me to change my ways, but it sometimes makes me question them.
Ali G
Ali,
I still put it down to the “how” of mking money. I can’t imagine buying up stocks in armaments, when one might know that a war might be happening somewhere. No point selling one’s soul. I’d never be able to sleep. I don’t care how rich someone is- it’s not what I aspire to. It’s why I don’t identify at all with authors like Kiyosaki, and words like “rich” or “successful” or whatever. I just want to have fun in life, and I’ve always done that, no matter how much money I have.
sorry for being a hogster, Ali [oink]
kay henry
Ali,
I saidI also have a problem with “facts”I don’t know that you can ever 100% be certain about anything. You can play on the probability of certain incidents happening again (which is how science works), but you can never know for sure.
then you said:
LifeX and Kay, excuse my flat scientific approach to your ideas about proving facts, but I have always been taught that you can never prove anythingSo I think you are agreeing with me, ok cool.
As for idealism, yeah I would love the world to live in perfect harmony/honesty/goodness. I personally prefer and thrive on these concepts when dealing with other harmonious/honest/good people in this way.
My problem that I raised in this thread was that when you step outside your tiny little comfort zone and enter the “hard cold realities of the world”, I found that my idealistic kind approach was taken advantage of. On a number of successive occasions without fail, My niceness not only left me worse off, but also left the person I was helping….worse off.
I found that the “kind thing to do” was not necesarily the best thing to do while conducting business. Pretending to be a social worker while investing was, in my opinion, bad news for all involved.
Ok..example.
I advertise a room for sale and get a call from a young lad who needed a place to say, he says he is copping abuse from his step father where he is living. i say ” how terrible” (I think to myself “great, i have acquired my first investment property and am finally in a position to help somebody.”) I have a room available, lets meet after the weekend.We meet at his step dads home, and he is sitting on the steps with his bags. On the grounds of my words, he had initiated a huge argument with his family, and was there ready to go.
I think “gee whiz toto, this poor fella”. Common sense dictates that you do due diligence checks on a potential applicant before offering a place… but what was i to do, if I didn’t offer this fella a room, he would be homeless (I had a newspaper cutting on the wall about the terrible statistics of homelessnes as a good intentioned reminder to me of how i could help people.) So I put him up in a hotel for a few days til room was available. And give him $30 for food til room was available, as he was flat broke.
Well, didn’t I feel good about myself. Doing good and helping a misfortuned person person out. I couldn’t get in touch with any of his references, but I had met him, and he SEEMED genuine and good.
A few days later, (the room was still not ready), I call the Motel to pay for a few more days for this poor unfortunate lad.
An angry motel manager yells at me “Well, that young man will never stay here again. He had stained all the sheets with alcohol smelling vomit, had cigarette burnt and ashed everywhere. Even though I was standing next to him when he was originally told it was a no smoking room and he said “Thats ok, I ALWAYS smoke outside”. There was also other damage to the room. He had scooted without saying anything to motel owners…I was charged with cleaning bill, and my name and my investing companies name was now DIRT, for vouching for someone who I thought was in need of my help.
The weekend went by, and no word from our little character. Still giving him the benefit of the doubt I thought “I hope he is ok, he must be a very troubled soul.”
Monday comes, and I get a call from the young lad…”hi, um, is that room ready?”
This lad had dug himself into a hole long before I came along, and I was just being used.
I then bite the bullet and turn off “mr. kind and ready to save the world” and say NO, I can’t help you anymore.
He may now be homeless by my kind gestures
IMAGINE, if I had of signed a tenancy agreement with him and put him in my house, My property would have been trashed!!!!
My point is, that when doing business, I have found that if you act like a social worker, you get treated like a charity. I would be better off joining greenpeace than playing “hero”.
I repeated similar scenarios on a number of occasions when faced with someone who had come to me as the last chance of not being homeless, often after the local government funded housing support services had turned them away. Skipped my due diligence, gave the benefit of the doubt……and both me and the person i thought i helped got BURNED EVERY TIME.
By continuing with that attitude I would now be broke and unable to help anyone at all.
Instead I am trying to understand how other experienced investors approach their business. To try to find out where on the scale I can interact with the real world.
I maintain my own personal virtues of honesty and integrity. Which I think are the best in the real world as it is very hard to push over a building without flaws.
But I no longer let kindness rule. I base my judgements on fairness and sound business sense. I think pure idealism fails to survive in the real world.
[dozey]
Sonja,
I am glad that your faith in your god works for you. That is great.
That book sounds interesting, i may check it out.
I will continue to walk my own path though and choose my decisions as they come up without set external rules.Maybe I’m just stubborn :o)
lifexperience
One person’s fact (ie their religion, as an example) is another person’s opinion.
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