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  • Profile photo of DerekDerek
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    @derek
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 3,544

    Hi all,

    Ignore for a moment the ‘Kaye’ references but from the tone of the article we could end up seeing a valuer trying to substantiate his/her figures against another.

    Could make for interesting reading when the case comes to court.

    Test case launched over Kaye property valuation
    By Paddy Manning
    June 05, 2004

    LAW firm Slater & Gordon yesterday launched a test case on behalf of a person who dealt with former property spruiker Henry Kaye, alleging their client was misled into buying a property at inflated prices.

    Client Stephen Sutton is seeking to set aside a contract to buy a strata office at 365 Little Collins St, Melbourne, alleging false and misleading conduct was used to induce him to buy the property.

    According to the statement of claim lodged yesterday, Mr Sutton agreed in mid-2002 to buy the property off the plan for $243,160.

    Under the terms of the contract with Property Consulting Group – a company in which Mr Kaye was a principal shareholder – settlement was deferred for two years. This means the money is due in coming months.

    Mr Sutton also says he paid PCG a $6600 “sourcing fee” for identifying the property.

    Slater & Gordon commercial litigation partner Rob Lees said an independent assessment obtained by his client found the real value of the property at the time was $170,000. He said Mr Sutton “is going to lose his shirt if he is forced to complete the sale”.

    The action is against the current property owner, 365 Little Collins Street Pty Ltd, a private company indirectly owned by developer Les Smith, who took over the project from Mr Kaye in the middle of last year, when it became clear the spruiker’s empire was collapsing. Mr Smith, who had nothing to do with the original transaction, indicated he would vigorously defend the claim.

    Mr Smith paid an unknown amount to buy all the company shares as part of a governing deed designed to keep Mr Kaye solvent before the appointment of an administrator to his companies.

    Mr Smith had previously made a commercial loan to Mr Kaye and found investors for some of his own developments through Mr Kaye. He is owed more than $50 million by Mr Kaye.

    Mr Smith yesterday disputed that the original value of Mr Sutton’s property was $170,000.

    “I’ve got two sworn valuations, dated June 2003 and January 2003, by two of Australia’s leading valuer companies, saying the purchase price he paid reflected the market value,” he said.

    Hearings start on August 20.

    Derek
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    Profile photo of kay henrykay henry
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    @kay-henry
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    A case of instant nequity, Derek? I reckon vals aren’t worth the paper they’re written on personally (sorry 1Hot!!) The only true value is what the market will pay. Getting a “true” valuation is like finding out the “true” state of the market- is it residex? APM? REIV?

    Valuers come up with vastly different prices for places. It’s a very inexact science.

    kay henry

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
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    @derek
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    Hi Kay,

    I agree with you – what really interests me is……

    Valuer A – How did you come up with your figure?
    Valuer B – How did you come up with your figure?

    And the answers from both valuers will go something along the lines of.

    Well your honour I did a search of comparable sales in the area and found these properties, rang local real estate agents to see what recent sales evidence I could use, did an inspection of the display unit and analysed the plans and came up with a valuation of $X – I Stand by that figure your honour.

    Derek
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    Profile photo of kay henrykay henry
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    Anyhoo, did Mr Sutton get a bank loan? If so, the bank valuation must have come up to scratch. I mean, Derek, I could go out now, get some crap valuation on an IP, and then say the developer I bought the property off gave me a wrong valuation. As forum members on here have mentioned, they get different (and crappy) vals all the time- who hasn;t at some stage?

    I’m all for people not getting ripped off. But I just think the valuation business today- sheesh- perhaps it needs an overhaul too? Derek, I know we’re on the same wavelength here :) Just adding more thoughts as they come up :)

    kay henry

    Profile photo of brahmsbrahms
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    @brahms
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    Interesting topic – how does one prove one one valuer negligent? One valuation may be ‘better’ than another, but does that constitute negligence?

    My suggestion to the valuer in question – settle out of court, buy the damn property from Mr Sutton – the cost will be significantly less than your lost time, loss of business, your effort and increased PI premium (if you can get cover next year that is).

    cheers

    brahms

    If you don’t ask, the answer is no!!

    Profile photo of SuperTedSuperTed
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    @superted
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    I agree Brahms it could be hard proving negligence > but as Derek said when the question gets asked in court how they arrived at that valuation figure I think a few people will begin to sweat anyway.[biggrin]

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
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    @derek
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    Hi Ted,

    And that is when I want to be a fly on the wall.

    Derek
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    Profile photo of SuperTedSuperTed
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    @superted
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    Originally posted by Derek:

    Hi Ted,

    And that is when I want to be a fly on the wall.

    Derek
    [email protected]

    Property Investment Support Available. Ongoing and never stopping. PM welcome.

    Hi Derek,

    Another good spot is just at the courtroom doors on adjournment and as close to the moving “huddle” as possible.

    regards,

    Ted

    Profile photo of 1HotValuer1HotValuer
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    Kay,
    we use very expensive paper.

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
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    @derek
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    Originally posted by 1HotValuer:

    Kay,
    we use very expensive paper.

    Love the sense of humour[biggrin]

    Derek
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    Property Investment Support Available. Ongoing and never stopping. PM welcome.

    Profile photo of thecrestthecrest
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    @thecrest
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    I would guess that the finance holding up the Smith empire is dependant on the credibility of the valuers in question. It would probably be in Mr Smith’s best interests not to have the “pillars” of his temple tested, so a very likely outcome is a quiet settlement, as soon as Mr Smith becomes convinced the complainant is serious and not a quitter.
    what a tangled web we weave . . . .
    it’ll be worth watching
    thecrest

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    Profile photo of zpeterdzpeterd
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    @zpeterd
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    Does anyone know how the case ended? I think Smith knew the units were overpriced, couple of month ago he offered to buy back mine for 100k. He sold it to me two years ago for 248k.

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
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    @derek
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    Hi Zpeterd,

    Suggest you give Slater and Gorton a call. I suspect there have been ‘adjournments’ or ‘out of court settlements’ and as such we may never know or we are going to have to wait a little longer.

    Derek
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    0409 882 958
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    Profile photo of Don NicolussiDon Nicolussi
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    or you get a value with comparable sales and the house next door to yours which sold 3 months earlier, same size, built buy the same builder is not included – the mind boggles


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    Profile photo of BattleshipsBattleships
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    @battleships
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    Hi All

    I’ve seen valuations in a flat market where listed in the comparative sales is the subject property a few months earlier at hundreds of thousands less.

    All valuations are not the same.

    Cheers
    [exhappy]

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