I went to his presentation in Sydney. I found it interesting.
I think the main difficulty (evident from this discussion) is the problem that we face as consumers trying to work out whether seminars are worth it or not.We all have these ways of trying to evaluate their worth. Some try to measure it by saying that this sort of information is expensive simply because it has a high perceived value others wont even consider it. Some seem to believe that your immediately a sceptic if you question it. None of these reasons seem very logical to me.
I think that its a pity that such full on marketing and sales techniques have been employed by this man to try to sell his seminar seats. He appealed to all peoples emotions through the use of laughter, sadness, seriousness fear etc. Which is fine (that’s what some selling is all about) I think, but it’s just how he went about it that left an ill feeling.
At his presentation when I saw everyone falling over each other to get into those reserved seats it just seemed pathetic to me. In fact one lady there was sitting on a complete strangers lap simply because she would not move and neither would he. They had fallen, scratched and clawed their way over others to get into that seat and neither was going to move.
In my opinion it was a pathetic display of desperation that was a result of cunning marketing and sales techniques.
When you see that kind of thing, it’s difficult to evaluate the worth of the seminar. Because the sales and marketing technique that drive it, are designed and in fact create a huge impulsive and emotional response rather than a rational one.
It is obvious why he sells like this, its because, emotions sell products.
The funny thing is I don’t doubt that this man has something to teach us, and I have had the intention (and still do) to buy his books.
I was just put off, I had the feeling that he viewed the audience as a bunch of sheep, simply there to be led this way and that.
The end result for me is that I did not go to his seminar and I may have missed a learning opportunity. But then if there is one thing that many other experts have taught me is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The information is there everywhere, its here in this forum and all the other countless forums and books. In the end its not about the information its about are personal drive, dedication and persistence. For example, the guy that I work for is one of the wealthiest men in Australia. I have often wondered why. The more I get to know him the more I realise that its not what he knows but who he is.
I’m not sure, can a seminar give you that?
Just my opinion.
MarkyMark
Robert Allen writes in: Zero to $1million on $49.95 per month the following:
103,000 people attended his $500 weekend investment seminars in the 80’s.
20,000 people attended his $5,000 week long wealth training in the 90’s.
In his first book he wrote:
“send me to any city in America, take away my wallet, give me $100 for living expenses and in 72 hours I will buy you an excellent property, all with none of my own money”
The LA Times took him up on the challenge. They flew him to San Francisco with an LA Times reporter. In 57 hours he had purchased 7 properties worth $722,000. Today those assets are worth almost triple that amount.
His claim to fame stands up in as far as he does what he says. To prove this point he took a couple from the unemployment line, who were broke, and using Robert’s techniques went on to earn over $100,000 in the next 12 months.
The point is, I guess, is to read a few of his books, and invest $5,000 in a property instead of a seminar. And, many of the techniques he uses are used here by successful investors.
Cheers,
Aaron [baaa]
“Worst episode ever!”
There have been many good points made in this post. It’s good to see that people have a healthy dose of scepticism, rather than just take everything at face value because someone is supposed to be a guru. This will stand you in good stead so you don’t get ripped off.
Wez.
To illustrate the ‘Its unfair how much they charge’ issue I will point out two basic business rules.
1. You can only charge what the market will pay.
2. Value = percieved benefit / priceIn this case the market is obviously paying the price, and they have plenty of people signing up. So, from a business point of view, the price is spot on… maybe even a little low. If people stopped paying, the price would have to come down.
To the second rule… Granted, Mr. Allen may inflate one’s perception of benefit ($1m in a year), but it is still their percption and they are the ones making the decision. In much the same way as a more astute individual disallows their perception to be affected by hype and doesn’t sign up.
Value = ($1m) / $4000
= 250Furthur on the measurment of value…. Any really good book costs about $25 retail. To have the same value (as the RA seminar) it would have to in some way help you achieve a sum of….
250 = benefit($) / 25
=$6250.
I know the numbers cant be accurate but its the idea that counts.Im sure there are many who could say reading one good book has made them $6250. For many, Steve’s book has done that many times over. I believe reading one book changed my destiny completly. After reading one book my plans for the future were changed (or maybe just written) and felt I had the potential to be more than was expected.
Do I still read today??? Very much so.
Do I sometimes loose motivation??? Yes, but that would happen whether I paid $4k to be motovated for a few days a year ago or not.
Can I be motovated by reading a few pages of a brilliant book??? Yes
Can I be motovated furthur by the sucess I have made for myself & others??? Of course.
Also, let it be known that for many years I thought books we a waste of time….
cheers all
blowieMoney is an elastic resource, it can be created. Time is not.
I would be more concerned if the guru was talking nonsense which Robert Allen clearly is not.
In the past I have struck a few socalled ‘guru’s’ in the share trading area and have done my very best to expose them.
I cannot really get all worked up about Robert Allen because (contrary to the rip offs I mentioned above) he does come with real knowledge.
The only issue would be if he made claims which are untrue.
Pisces
“1. You can only charge what the market will pay.
2. Value = percieved benefit / priceIn this case the market is obviously paying the price, and they have plenty of people signing up. So, from a business point of view, the price is spot on… maybe even a little low. If people stopped paying, the price would have to come down.”
blowie
I think your view is being a little naive. Many people are falling over themselves to attend these seminars, because they think they are going to be given the key that will unlock all the secrets to wealth. That won’t happen. As a result, they will pay almost anything. Don’t worry, we all go through that stage in our development when we are still “green” but then we move on.
It is fine to be motivated – nothing wrong with that at all. You need it if you expect to have any chance of becoming a successful investor, but it is only a starting point. You need to be able to look back on many years of success (however you define it) before you can say your motivation paid off, i.e. I was motivated to take action and now I can look back and see how successful I’ve become.
I think there are many people who get motivated at various times. Years later they still think they are motivated but nothing has really changed. Are they successful? Motivation is absolutely useless unless backed up with results.
An analogy: many people can’t stick to a gym routine. Why? Because it is too difficult to commit to something that must become a lifestyle. It requires discipline and dedication. Investing is no different. There are no quick fixes, not even from a guru.
Hi guys
Reading some of these posts has just given me a thought [confused2]
We all say that we can pretty much learn all this investing stuff from books, and I agree with that to an extent…
But, NOWHERE in any books have I read, did I learn that it was possible for me (and my partner) to purchase 10 properties in the space of 2 months (OTP) avg purchase price $325K, AND be able to settle on them a year later. My income $50K approx – partner $80K approx. Yep, we had some costly ‘learning experiences’ along the way, and it didn’t all work out beautifully, but we did it.
Until learning that, no matter what I’d read about others buying 1 every 3 months, let alone per week, I didn’t think I could buy more than 1 every couple of years – based on what my friendly bank manager told me.
So, do I think there’s places for seminars – absolutely, anybody who has read my posts will know I’ve been to many. Is it for everybody, of course not. But I would think even Steve’s seminars (which I have not attended) would give more insight into the ‘how’ he did it rather than just reading his book. It’s so easy to read that it’s been done before, but the nuts and bolts are harder to come by – just ask Kiyosaki for any details ever[biggrin]
My .22c
Cheers
MelYes, you can only chargewhat the market will pay… but I bet these spruikers were gearing up to charge higher and higher proices until Henry Kae fell down. Already, he was up to charging 50k. Imagine how many MORE secrets you could learn for 100k!!! And here would be people who’s pay it… and they’d walk out thinking they were the “elites”… that;s until the credit card statement came in.
People will pay anything if they think it will help them escape their current rut. It’s *often* the rut and the unhappiness that creates the demand- it’s not just a fiscal thing- it’s unhappiness which is the driver. (I did say often
) Ask a lot of the people who are about to enter the seminars about their lives. I be they come up with a range of personal and financial difficulties which have beset them recently. Seminars can be the perfect escapism- lots of affirmations and being told how other people are “losers” (not you of course- you’re the winner for paying all the money!) Spruikers use a lot of negative motivation. It’s very cruel. Not only to the people who are there (who want to differentiate themselves from the “losers” out there) but also in slagging off people’s dear ones. It’s saying “if your parents, husband. friends, think this idea of spending milliosns is a bad idea then dump them”… it’s very much the amway, cult form of psychological pressuring- if someone is not on your downline, then write them off. I never understand how people fall for such stuff. It’s very mean and divisive.kay henry
Originally posted by kay henry:
Yes, you can only chargewhat the market will pay… but I bet these spruikers were gearing up to charge higher and higher proices until Henry Kae fell down. Already, he was up to charging 50k. Imagine how many MORE secrets you could learn for 100k!!! And here would be people who’s pay it… and they’d walk out thinking they were the “elites”… that;s until the credit card statement came in.Ouch[axe][
][dead][dead2][xx(][arrowhead][bomb].Kay’s picking on me… runs sobbing into the corner
Cheers
MelHehe too funny Mel, awwww… maybe you should see another spruiker to get you out of that corner again.[biggrin]
Celivia
Mel, I would never pick on you :o) You know (I hope) how much I respect you
You are one of the people I have learned so much from around here- I think you’re great! [thumbsupanim]kay henry
Kay,
Agree with your tack to have scepticism when we learn about these seminars….. I do as well….
BUT… for some people whom we know reasonable info about, as long as the price is “reasonable” ( and that is the catch…. ) would it not still be worth it ??
( just wondering out loud here.. not trying to argue anything…… )
As an IT Slave.. it’s quite common for me to spend a couple of thousand $$$ to attend a 5 day course… I walk out with added knowledge….
I would assume the same for some seminars out there….. Frankly I was amazed a few months ago, when a huge debate about $1200 (?) for Steve’s seminar…. It’s the people that complain about the cost, that are the ones who never get off their butts and act on the info…..
For me, personally…. I’d do my homework on the speaker, before decided on going for the seminar…. Then I’d make damn sure I would get out there and practice ( if practical ) what i had learnt…..
Just a few thoughts……
Cheers
Scott
Pelican Investments
http://www.pelican-invest.composted by Pelicaninvestments
I’d do my homework on the speaker, before decided on going for the seminar….Very wise words and very much agree.
Cheers,
sis>>Yes, you can only charge what the market will pay… but I bet these spruikers were gearing up to charge higher and higher proices until Henry Kae fell down. Already, he was up to charging 50k. Imagine how many MORE secrets you could learn for 100k!!!<<
Kay, I frequent one particular website run by a couple of guys called Peter and David and they GIVE AWAY an e-book (actually one has even the choice to receive the book in hardcover – FREE).
There are also many free (helpful) articles and one can even download some very valuable talks and play them back on your computer.
In addition to their free e-book (which I cannot speak highly enough off because of the valuable techniques they describe) I have also actually purchased another book written by them (which set me back all of $ 40-95).
Sofar my outlay is about $ 41-00 for information
(i.e. a $ 41 book, a free e-book, free articles, and audio talks for which (had I known beforehand what its value was) I gladly would have been prepared to pay $ 5,000 for.That’s how valuable and helpful I think some of these techniques they describe are.
But ……………, again, without action on one’s part all of that information is completely useless.
Interesting but useless.
Now, coming back to a point you raise, these guys also run a seminar and the price is $ 30,000.
That is US dollars.
Now if they are telling the truth many of last year’s attendees have again enrolled this year (at the full price).
Now if what Pater and David are telling us is the truth, could we safely assume that at least these repeaters must see value in attending such an expensive seminar if they are prepared to shell out the same sum again this year or would you say that they are likely to be a bit soft on top AS WELL AS having too much money to throw around ?
To me it means that at least some of these expensive seminars must represent value.
The second point you make >> but also in slagging off people’s dear ones. It’s saying “if your parents, husband. friends, think this idea of spending millions is a bad idea then dump them”…<< does make perfect sense to me.
It doesn’t necessarily follow that one cuts oneself off from one’s parents as such as that one (tries to) not to take too much notice of people who are constantly negative.
Some people cannot help being unwarrantedly negative because of either their upbringing or other personal experiences in life.
In my case I very much identify with that. I do have some understanding where many of such people are coming from.
Some relations of mine who experienced the depression are absolutely horrible in the (what they think is helpful) opinions they spout.
To give an extreme example, my brother in law walked in one day whilst we were having dinner and started to berate my mother because “You are giving Pisces too big a piece of sausage and when times turns bad again and he is used to getting big portions and he can no longer obtain them he will be in trouble.”
Now was he negative ? Of course he was.
Was there a reason for him being like that ?
Yes of course. He had just gone through the depression (being married and little income and he therefore had experienced extreme hardship) and subsequently he experienced a 5 year war during which food was scarce (as he was in hiding and food was scarce and rationed.
I have also heard him make the statement “If one is born to be a ten cent piece one will never be a dollar”. I doubt that such an outlook will be helpful in reaching for the sky.
It is clear to me what is meant by ‘Distance yourself from such negative people.’
In my book changing one’s friends for that particular reason is fully justified if their outlook bothers and influences you so as to hold you back.
I doesn’t necessarily follow that one has to cut oneself off from one’s relatives.
Just the company one keeps (one’s friends for example) will go a long way towards helping one to reach for higher goals.
Pisces
Pisces :o)
Thanks for your post :o) I see where you are coming from- yes, it is good to have a big sausage- perhaps your bro in law has sausage envy or something- who knows?
I consider myself a positive person. Imagine if someone was told to spend all their money on a lotto ticket- with the possibility of winning money beyond their wildest dreams? There are some people who become victims of scams- it just happens. Lots of pensioners became victims of victor ollis- that’s why he went to jail for 12 years- ripping off pensioners.
Some people see Neil Jenman as “negative”, or perhaps they might see me as “negative” for trying to provide alternative viewpoints about get-rich schemes. I like to think I come from a place of caring- rather than “envying” or some other such thing. There are always two sides to a viewpoint. If someone is going to venture into something that *I* view as “negative” then I feel it is “positive” to provide a different view of it.
When I buy IP’s, I ask the people I care about to discuss it with me. They raise all different points to me, and it makes me look at the deal really scrupulously. I welcome their critique of the deal- it helps me to either defend it, or to realise it might not be a good thing. I see their analysis (even if it’s based upon fear!) as a poisitive in my life- not a negative.
It’s good you got such good value out of the RE stuff on the net, Pisces [biggrin] Tell us what the secrets are
) hehekay henry
I doubt the techniques will help you Kay as the aim is to buy the property as cheaply as possible.
However an email is coming your way.
Pisces
Kay
You make many good points.
Sometimes people don’t realise the damage they are doing to themselves. They keep forking out thousands and thousands of dollars on seminars trying to convince themselves and others it is all for the best. They are not looking at it objectively. In a sense, they become brainwashed and nothing you say will make them analyse what they are doing.
Take an extreme case. Someone has $50,000 set aside for investment. Now, they have heard that you must educate yourself before you do anything with your money. Good advice. So they come under the influence of seminar providers and convince themselves that the money spent will be well worth it. Over the course of a year or two they “blow” $40,000 on a variety of educational material.
This is just ridiculous since that money has to be earned again to break even, and with only $10,000 left that’s hard yakka. So what I’m getting at is the cost must be in proportion to your overall asset base. In this case, setting a limit of $5,000 for education, say, would be much more appropriate.
Wez.
Wez, No offense but I would say that anyone who did that would be very foolish.
Pisces
Pisces
Yes, you’d be right, but people seem to want to sabotage their success by doing things like that. If you spoke to all the people who pay for seminars, I wonder how many would tell you they had to get a loan or put it on a credit card?
Wez.
Originally posted by wezwaz:Pisces
Yes, you’d be right, but people seem to want to sabotage their success by doing things like that. If you spoke to all the people who pay for seminars, I wonder how many would tell you they had to get a loan or put it on a credit card?
If you need to get a loan or put it on a credit card to go to the seminar then you shouldn’t attending any seminars at all, but to save enough money to do so in the future if you wanted too.
Kind regards
Jet Dollars
[Retire Young, Retire Rich] [strum]
) Ask a lot of the people who are about to enter the seminars about their lives. I be they come up with a range of personal and financial difficulties which have beset them recently. Seminars can be the perfect escapism- lots of affirmations and being told how other people are “losers” (not you of course- you’re the winner for paying all the money!) Spruikers use a lot of negative motivation. It’s very cruel. Not only to the people who are there (who want to differentiate themselves from the “losers” out there) but also in slagging off people’s dear ones. It’s saying “if your parents, husband. friends, think this idea of spending milliosns is a bad idea then dump them”… it’s very much the amway, cult form of psychological pressuring- if someone is not on your downline, then write them off. I never understand how people fall for such stuff. It’s very mean and divisive.
][dead][dead2][xx(][arrowhead][bomb].
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