Hi All,
Well the issue of operating strictly in the name of making money, or being more moralistic in one’s behaviour has raised a few eyebrows to say the least.
I believe we are all (most of us anyway) mature/smart enough to have figured out that the two (business and morals) are not exclusive to each other, and can operate independantly.
But seeing as it has caused some debate….let’s nut it out, here’s a hypo for you (to think about, so don’t go getting too steamed; it’s all in the name of fun).
Let me set the scene……
You’re at an auction for an IP that you are interested in purchasing; great location, nice little house, great potential etc etc etc., however there is opposition within…..a young couple (pregnant wife) with a toddler in a pram, and she’s hanging desparately onto hubby’s arm, pleading with him to “put in one more bid, please…”. You can see clearly that for every $1000 you raised the bid their facial expression reflected a painful cringe from both the man and his wife. You know that you can knock them out of the race with one swoop of say $5000 and put the end it all now……what do you do????
By the way, the scenario was real (for me)….I was in the exact position only a month ago.
Jo
I will knock them out and sign the dot. This is an investment decision. If I want to help other then I will, but not at auction where money can be made.
Kind regards
Chan Dollars
[Retire Young, Retire Rich] [strum]ok Monopoly, I’ll go there
It depends on so many variables. Whilst there might be a couple with a child, both parents could be working (3 of my colleagues have young babies and work full-time in professional jobs as do their husbands). I don’t know of that many women who are staying at home looking after babies these days, so I guess if it wee me watching the couple, I would probably assume that both partners were working. It depends on the house too, and if it was in an urban area (city) during the boom. Then, I would think if they were at such an auction, that both of them probably had professional jobs. Of course, I would only be making assumptions about this. Just as you have painted them as possibly being financially disadvantaged, I might see them as financially advantaged- as I said, it depends on so many variables. Using my colleagues as an example, between them and their hubbies, they’d be on at least 140k- that is much more than I am on!!
So if it were me bidding at an auction (which I’d never do because I’d freak out and lose control and make my bids at 100k intervals because I’d lose control [withstupid] I would position myself in relation to them. I work my finances on my own. I have no financial help (maybe they do? with their parents or something? Many people have that kind of support) and so I am completely responsible for the choices I make. I would not necessarily imagine that I am better off financially than they are. As such, I wouldn;t necessarily allow them to get the house.
But if you think that the baby and wife thing DO get a sympathy vote, then maybe I should go to an auction with my teddybear wrapped in swaddling clothes, and put him in a pram, and go for that “single mother with a baby(bear)” look, and knock out all the other potential purchasers :o)))
It’s a really different world than the 1950’s. Women are working now, and I don’t see a young family as necessarily financially disadvantaged. Even if the mum is home with the child now, I believe she would have the ability to return to work some time or resume her old job when the little one is a bit older.
Again, it all depends on how you see the world.
kay henry
we could just call this ‘capitalism versus communism’.
I like the one where the individual who works hard and strives for success can improve their circumstances. Where countries are more productive, where there is choice, and freedom. Not the one where you stand in the line for your standard ration, free thinking is discouraged, and everyone kinda under-achieves, “cause what’s the point really? we won’t make any more…”in the ‘sympathy model’ above, if they can afford to bid against you for a house, they’re OK. I’d say there are more deserving people to warrant your compassion than them…
Anyway, haha, how’s this for a theory, perhaps they were actors hired by a savvy richmastery investor hoping to emotionally blackmail other bidders to back off what he knew would be a hot property.
cheers-
MiniThe title of this thread, making money VERSUS morals, has already (sadly) made it’s decision that the two can’t go together. Of course you can have both, I do. Most of us do.
I had my uncle telling me that I was ‘ripping off the poor’ by renting properties to them. After searching my soul, doing a couple of renos, I made my peace that I had a) provided a more lovely property than a state house equivalent at b) the same price, thus assuring myself tenants and c) created 1.5 jobs in that town through spending 1.5 times the average wage there doing renos. I sleep well and I think I have just as many morals as my uncle, I just think that he….
hasn’t been there, has never *seen* what I have done, and *imagines* something ‘bad’ out of…..fear? judgement? ignorance?
anyway, he’s not the judge of me, luckily.
Also, I’m helping the government provide low-cost housing, thus reducing the government’s burden to do so if the private sector didn’t invest in rental properties. Thus, in a round about fashion, saving not just my uncle and me but the whole bloody country tax. *you like??!!*oooh, and I’m on a roll with this now, and by increasing my personal wealth, I am less likely to need welfare handouts, more likely to be able to provide for my own retirement, thus further reducing my burden on the government (i.e. everybody else.)
Yah, yah, win – (me) win (everybody) – win (government- now they don’t have to support me, and my wealth creation buddies, they of course have more to spend on parks and drinking fountains for tired pregant women who have just been at auctions) win….
not to mention if the millionaires which we’ll all become tithe and give 10 percent $$$ back to the community, a la the ‘one minute millionaire’!
You just gotta get on with what you’re doing if YOU feel it’s with integrity and take the judgements of others with a BIG pinch of salt.
It’s hard to say… I would jump the price to $2900 and if they bid further (say where onto $100 bids) $3,500, but I’m not going to seriously change my game plan because there is another bidder and the vendors want the best price (say they are a struggling couple?).
In the end though, it’s not up to me to make housing affordable for people to buy. It’s up to the government. They can release land, rezone, provide more public housing, provide rent assistance, reconfigure tax rates, impose and abolish duties and levies, come up with things like the FHOG to make housing more affordable.
In the end for investors, it comes down to the numbers.
Remember they could spend the time to learn how to invest in property (reading, internet, meeting others), but they chose not too. So in the end it’s not my problem that they have not wanted to better themeselves financially. The knowledge is out there (more so than at any other time in human history) and if they chose not to use it’s their choice.
Saying that I don’t really like auctions, so I don’t really buy from them (no creativity, no fun).
Rgds.
Lucifer_auHey Jo
Interesting question!
Perhaps by jumping up the bidding and knocking this couple out of the race, you’d be doing them a favour. If they’re cringing at every increase in the bids, it suggests they’re already bidding above what they can afford.
If you let them buy the house, you may be sentencing them to a financial commitment they just can’t afford. Maybe it’s going to hurt them short term to lose the house they want, but perhaps the fear of having such a big mortgage will make them rethink what they’re doing and instead buy something they can comfortably afford.
But then again, maybe not!Keep smiling
FelicityHey guys……chill out!!!!
Let’s get it straight, especially you Minimogul, it is not sad at all; I do not assume that Making money equates to not having morals; I resent that!!!!
I have made money, and believe me, I still have my morals in tact!!!
I will reveal what I did later, but for now, can you manage to just think outside the square and do as Lucifer_au did, and just answer the question without the soapbox, or hostility.
I am not here to judge any of you, nor do I intend to sentence you to death for your deeds or pronounce you as an immoral bunch who have taken advantage of the poor. Get a grip!!! LOL
Relax….
Jo
Originally posted by Monopoly:Hi All,
Well the issue of operating strictly in the name of making money, or being more moralistic in one’s behaviour has raised a few eyebrows to say the least.
I believe we are all (most of us anyway) mature/smart enough to have figured out that the two (business and morals) are not exclusive to each other, and can operate independantly.
But seeing as it has caused some debate….let’s nut it out, here’s a hypo for you (to think about, so don’t go getting too steamed; it’s all in the name of fun).
Let me set the scene……
You’re at an auction for an IP that you are interested in purchasing; great location, nice little house, great potential etc etc etc., however there is opposition within…..a young couple (pregnant wife) with a toddler in a pram, and she’s hanging desparately onto hubby’s arm, pleading with him to “put in one more bid, please…”. You can see clearly that for every $1000 you raised the bid their facial expression reflected a painful cringe from both the man and his wife. You know that you can knock them out of the race with one swoop of say $5000 and put the end it all now……what do you do????
By the way, the scenario was real (for me)….I was in the exact position only a month ago.
Jo
And after they were outbid, did they climb into their brand new 5 series and drive off into the sunset
Originally posted by Chan$:I will knock them out and sign the dot. This is an investment decision. If I want to help other then I will, but not at auction where money can be made.
Agree, will push the couple to their limits, and then place a knock out bid.
Cheers,
sisWell, I guess if you are thinking outside the box, then maybe a wrap or lease option solution might come into play. ie Buy the place and then approach the couple afterwards.
However, to be honest, if I am bidding at an auction (with an intention to buy), I am purely focused on purchasing at the best price I can. It would not register what status or situation the other bidders are currently in. They would be purely competition, nothing more, nothing less.
Sounds pretty cold but if I knew it was going to make me a solid return in the future, I would prefer the title be in my name than someone elses.
James
I can’t see any reason why bidding against them and winning the house is in any way immoral. The system is, (and it’s a fair system), that whoever is willing to pay the most for a house at auction gets the house. It makes no difference if this is your 50th house and you have millions, or the opposite. I think one of the assumptions here is that by not out-bidding these people we would be doing them a favour, but we don’t know that. We don’t know that they aren’t already bidding over their head, encouraged by the wife’s emotional sleeve-pulling, and a ‘favour’ from us would simply help them to realise financial turmoil. As a christian I obviously believe that one of the paramount purposes of life is to ‘love thy neighbour’ etc, but I sincerely believe that teaching a man how to fish is infinitely better than giving him a fish, and in many cases giving a handout can be detrimental as it can simply reinforce a dependant lifestyle.
In short, I believe there are times for favours but this certainly isn’t one of them. Bid higher and win the house.p.s. Thanks for a great discussion topic Jo
Regards,
Simonopoly – i agree with mini. business and morals as you put it should walk hand in hand. everyday i see ‘little hitlers’ (in the words of paul kelly) try and pretend there are different rules at work compared to at home.
the problem is this almost always comes unstuck. invariably the two world will eventually collide. why make life so complicated. have one set of moral standards and apply them everywhere you go.
alot of blokes i know say that is unrealistic and that in the ‘real world’ u have to play the game.
well i blve the truely great people think that crap and create a life around themselves that allows them to be ‘themselves’ 100 pct of the time..
lifes to short. be the best person you can….
ps – i wld give a knock out bid. there may be many reasons the young couple are anxious. they could have heaps of money, more than you, but are sick of looking….whose the fool then when you let it go and see them drinking a bottle of grange and the resteraunt down the road…
I wouldn’t go to an auction to ‘allow’ someone else to out-bid myself unless it went past my pre-set limit otherwise it would be a big waste of time doing so.
I suppose the moral part you could be asking is that should you post $5,000 to knock them out in one hit, show them you have more money than they can ever afford to bid for the house because of the way the wife is asking the hubby to bid one more and they have one or more kid. I probably wouldn’t bid the $5,000. Considering you are down to $1,000 dollar bid there is only so many ‘just one more’ type bids there can be and I hardly think they would be in it for 3 rounds. If they are I would be highly suspicious of the whole setup anyway [hmm]
It would be a very sad world if no one had any morals, but i believe everyone knows in their own heart when to apply those morals depending on the situation.Where your hard earned money is concerned and you are buying a property at auction, the head should rule the heart and emotions and morals should be kept at a minimum. I have not been placed in this situation as yet so i can only say what i think i would do if it happened to me.Please Monopoly [worried]don’t bring your wrath upon me for my opinion.
FostonMorals differ from person to person, from one group of people to another group.
What is immoral in this country may be very acceptable behaviour elsewhere.
Who are we anyway, judging someone else’s behaviour ?
Pisces
Monopoly I am having some difficulty working out what you said that was sooo bad everyone wants to pounce.
Whatever you did in the end is up to you and no one has the right to sit in judgement.
Whilst everyone is feeling so sorry for the hard done by pregnant lady, what about the poor old vendor sitting inside with his/her heart in their mouth. Maybe they are burning and need the money as much as the purchasing couple.
Wouldn’t it be a wonderful and boring old world if we were to solve every little problem – oh dear I can feel the heat already.
We all do what we feel comfortable with.[evil4]
dismith,
Call me short-sighted, but I cannot see any pouncing going on here. Monopoly asked what people would do, and people responded with their thoughts. Presumably, Monopoly wanted to hear people’s different viewpoints. I think the point of this board is to engender interest in all aspects of RE, and Monopoly’s post has attracted a lot of interest. I am sure Monopoly would not have posted if she felt upset by diversity of opinion.
People need never worry about others disagreeing with their perspectives or whatever. Generally, people don’t take others ideas personally, unless it is a direct, mean and vicious attack- and those are never necessary.
kay henry
Great thread you have started Monopoly,
I started out with the intentions of kind and giving, got burnt a number of times and gave false hope to certain people in the process.
I have re-evaluated and now go for FIRM BUT FAIR.[medieval]
Do you think the wife would be pulling hubbys arm when the TV store refuses to drop it’s price on the top of the range $10,000 plasma tv?
You could be reinforcing a couples attempt to live beyond their means.P.S. I know a guy that took his pregnant wife to buy a house in a clapped out old VolksWagon. He got it for a steal based on the sympathy vote. He owned almost $2,000,000 worth of property at the time!!!
[eh] [hat]lifexperience
The marine turtle eggs were hatching as they do all at once. Yet they did not go for the beach immediately, they seem to be hoping for the right time, waiting…
Finally, the first valiantly brave the unknown and start their perilous way to the water only 10 meters away.The hatching of the eggs is been observed by a curious onlooker who, when the first turtles came out and aware of the impending danger from the seagulls decides to give a helping hand. She gently picks up the first group of turtles that comes out of hiding and walks them to the water, releasing them safely in the wash. Job accomplished she says to herself, this turtles are safe.
The main group that is still waiting under the sand , for tell tale noises, hears nothing, no flatter of wings , no feeding frenzy, the coast is clear! It is the signal they needed; they now emerge from under the sand en mass. . . . . Only that this time the signals had been distorted by a person that did not know what she was doing interfering with the natural course of things, the seagulls could not believer their luck and this time no turtle reached the water, it was a real massacre.
May God bless you
and prosper you.
MarcMarc,
I really like that
It certainly gives us something to think about.
A caring hand can cause much grief.
Russ.
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