It’s easy to say “It’s all their fault, they should have done their own independent research” when you have been investing in property for a long time.
There are lots of people out there who don’t know anything any the property investment scene, and who assume that the people they are dealing are decent and honest like them.
A program like this at least warns them that they need be very careful when dealing with property investment companies.
CarLover.
Car Lover. I think you will find that most people do research before they buy their first property.
I would be almost 100% certain that NO-ONE would buy a car they saw in a yard without driving it first or looking at the prices of similar cars.
Why should realestate be any different?
‘Eat rich food, barbeque a yuppie’ [greedy]
… but the thing is, these people were warned, about how the properties, being sold to them, are $50k+ or more than the valuation, and that, if they did want the property, they would have to fund that extra $50k+ or more, by other means…
… even when warned, these people still went against the odds…
Cheers,
sisI’m still alive, I didn’t see you there CHan and Sis!
Seriously, OOOHHH I felt really sorry for the people affected![glum]Even if it was-kindof- their own fault for not doing enough research etc, don’t forget that the scammers made sure the victims were really hyped up and excited, and also if EVERY single person they meet is in on the scam, from stewardess to bankmanager, then people, as carlover says, do trust that it is safe, that if the bank is involved as well then it will be safe.
Sis and Chan also have a good point, they were there and saw that the people were being warned when they went on that bustour, but I wasn’t under the impression that this was also the case with the QLD deals, that these people were warned about paying too much.
Have I missed something and were they warned?WHether it is the victims own fault or not can be debated or argued but aside from that I think it is a good thing to expose these scams and con-artists as much as possible so more people will be aware it’s going on, and I think everyone surely must agree with that.
There are so many lovely and trusting people out there, especially elderly people and they should be protected and warned as much as possible.
I didn’t watch it.
Sounds all very sob story, poor little battlers even better if they’re ‘low status’ i.e. little old lady battlers, crying, makes great television.Like with all ‘advertised’ investments, a la property investing expo, darling harbour.
‘We take the guess-work out of investing!”
‘sleep well tonight, knowing your money is in safe hands!’
‘financial advisor with 8 years and 60 million dollars experience!’
‘guaranteed returns for 6 years!’
blah blah, designed to appeal to people who don’t have time, inclination, or brains to figure out a good deal from a bad.
target of VO by the sounds of things.
In the end you have a businessman inventing a ‘service’ which he makes money on when he sells it. Not a crime? He can mark it up as far as he wants. If there’s a buyer who wants to pay that.
Like how much is a cup of coffee? And then there’s starbucks. But people will pay it. good marketing, perception, vibe. maybe VO had all of those things.
And you have consenting adults who aren’t being coerced into anything signing up to buy, I don’t get what the big deal is. Yes, someone bought something over-valued. But every time I buy designer ‘anything’ you could say that is true.
These people weren’t probably buying an ‘investment’, they were buying a dream. They didn’t care about numbers I don’t think and couldn’t have told a good investment from their a**hole.
Just as buying a car hire-purchase isn’t that good a deal, people who ‘should’ know better still go for it.
what am I trying to say here? That sob stories make great television. but really, victims, or stupid? Scammer, or smart businessman?
Ethical? What does that mean and what are you allowed to do and be ‘ethical’ and what aren’t you allowed to do?Is someone who bought rip-off fake Louis Vuitton bags in Bali for $20 bucks each and sells them for $100 in paddo ethical or unethical? What about the person who sold the bali bags? What about the person who copied the design off the original $5000 Louis bag and had them manufactured, ethical or not?
What about the fact that the bag seller in Paddo is not trying to pass them off as ‘real’ Louis Vuitton bags? Does that make him ‘ethical’?
It’s just all a bit of a…..philosophical question. if the solution was to put legislation and training in place so that everyone was educated and protected, there would STILL be people who got hurt. Didn’t bother with their free education.
If prices were set by the government communism style, then humans would find other ways to try and elevate themselves from the guy next door.
I don’t know what the answer is to stop most of the world spending more than they earn and getting in a bigger financial hole every year, apart from what I can do in my own life and helping others get into it.
The free trip Chan and SIS went on did sound fun though.
Real estate is different because it has sleek operators and marketers who specialise in hiding the truth, manipulating people’s emotions and painting a false picture. They do it with a degree of sophistication not seen in car yards.
If you haven’t seen any of them in action, go to a ‘free’ investment property seminar.
<<<<<Real estate is different because it has sleek operators and marketers who specialise in hiding the truth, manipulating people’s emotions and painting a false picture. They do it with a degree of sophistication not seen in car yards>>>>>
I agree.
I got caught once by a slick insurance salesman 20 yrs ago. I had just finished Uni and wanted a 10 yr savings plan. I think it was like an insurance bond that expired after 10 yrs.
On signing the paperwork it said 25 yrs. I said I wanted 10 yrs – he goes dont worry, they are all like that – thats the way it is. So I signed it. After being overseas for a while I came to understand that the higher the years the higher the commission. Thats when I realised I got wrapped/ripped off. Fortunately I explained my circumstances to the Insurance company and I did the 10 yrs with no penalities.
But I got ripped off. It can be difficult to do the research and understand how some industries work. Banks, real estate sales people, solicitors etc should be held accountable for MISLEADING behaviour.
Not disclosing the truth is misleading behaviour. Really what purpose do these people serve to the community. NOTHING.
Celivia’s replies in maroon.
Originally posted by MiniMogul:I didn’t watch it.
Sounds all very sob story, poor little battlers even better if they’re ‘low status’ i.e. little old lady battlers, crying, makes great television.Yes it is indeed a sob story, but I think it is better to broadcast this then do nothing at all, because stories like this, as you say, ‘make great television’ and will appeal to many people. THe more people know about scams, the better!
Like with all ‘advertised’ investments, a la property investing expo, darling harbour.
‘We take the guess-work out of investing!”
‘sleep well tonight, knowing your money is in safe hands!’
‘financial advisor with 8 years and 60 million dollars experience!’
‘guaranteed returns for 6 years!’
blah blah, designed to appeal to people who don’t have time, inclination, or brains to figure out a good deal from a bad.
Yes mostly designed to appeal to people who don’t have time, inclination, or brains but that doesn’t mean that the time-poor, and people with an under-average IQ should loose all of their possessions to conartists. They have feelings, too!
target of VO by the sounds of things.
In the end you have a businessman inventing a ‘service’ which he makes money on when he sells it. Not a crime? He can mark it up as far as he wants. If there’s a buyer who wants to pay that.
Like how much is a cup of coffee? And then there’s starbucks. But people will pay it. good marketing, perception, vibe. maybe VO had all of those things.
Little things like a cup of coffee or a bag are items people buy regularly, property is something that many people only get to buy once or twice during their lifetime. People are more aware of prices when it comes to items that they buy freqently. You also won’t loose all of your possessions when you pay too much for a bag or coffee.
And you have consenting adults who aren’t being coerced into anything signing up to buy, I don’t get what the big deal is. Yes, someone bought something over-valued. But every time I buy designer ‘anything’ you could say that is true.
These people weren’t probably buying an ‘investment’, they were buying a dream. They didn’t care about numbers I don’t think and couldn’t have told a good investment from their a**hole.
Yes very sadly this is true, but not everybody is as investment-sevvy as people here on this forum, and therefore they trust and rely on “experts”.
Just as buying a car hire-purchase isn’t that good a deal, people who ‘should’ know better still go for it.
Agree with carlover
what am I trying to say here? That sob stories make great television. but really, victims, or stupid? Scammer, or smart businessman?
Ethical? What does that mean and what are you allowed to do and be ‘ethical’ and what aren’t you allowed to do?A smart businessman can make his fortune without having to rip people off. Being smart doesn’t make it right to take advantage of others.
SO we need a variety of techniques to expose scammers. So be it if it has to be a tv program like this. Isn’t that what a lot of people watch?
Exposure…exposure…exposure…Is someone who bought rip-off fake Louis Vuitton bags in Bali for $20 bucks each and sells them for $100 in paddo ethical or unethical? What about the person who sold the bali bags? What about the person who copied the design off the original $5000 Louis bag and had them manufactured, ethical or not?
Unethical, but let’s concentrate on the big fish first. People have lost their houses over dealing with these scammers. Not good enough!
What about the fact that the bag seller in Paddo is not trying to pass them off as ‘real’ Louis Vuitton bags? Does that make him ‘ethical’?
It’s just all a bit of a…..philosophical question. if the solution was to put legislation and training in place so that everyone was educated and protected, there would STILL be people who got hurt. Didn’t bother with their free education.
I agree that this wouldn’t be a solution, but perhaps one step in the right direction.
ANother step in the right direction is to expose these so called ‘smart businessmen’. It can take forever to find a solution, and may be we never get there. But that doesn’t mean we should give up tying or take little steps to do at least SOMETHING about it!If prices were set by the government communism style, then humans would find other ways to try and elevate themselves from the guy next door.
I don’t know what the answer is to stop most of the world spending more than they earn and getting in a bigger financial hole every year, apart from what I can do in my own life and helping others get into it.
THat’s a great thing: help yourself and others around you. If everybody did that it would make a big difference. It certainly would be a big step in teh right direction!
The free trip Chan and SIS went on did sound fun though.
Originally posted by yack:<<<<<Real estate is different because it has sleek operators and marketers who specialise in hiding the truth, manipulating people’s emotions and painting a false picture. They do it with a degree of sophistication not seen in car yards>>>>>
I agree
I got caught once by a slick insurance salesman 20 yrs ago. I had just finished Uni and wanted a 10 yr savings plan. I think it was like an insurance bond that expired after 10 yrs.
On signing the paperwork it said 25 yrs. I said I wanted 10 yrs – he goes dont worry, they are all like that – thats the way it is. So I signed it. After being overseas for a while I came to understand that the higher the years the higher the commission. Thats when I realised I got wrapped/ripped off. Fortunately I explained my circumstances to the Insurance company and I did the 10 yrs with no penalities.
But I got ripped off. It can be difficult to do the research and understand how some industries work. Banks, real estate sales people, solicitors etc should be held accountable for MISLEADING behaviour.
Not disclosing the truth is misleading behaviour. Really what purpose do these people serve to the community. NOTHING.
I so agree with you, Yack!
Glad it had a good ending for you!One Lesson Learnt from this story that I don’t think has been mentioned is, this is another excellent reason for having a mortgage broker organise your finance. They get to see the valuation and can at least flag where there is such disparity between valuation and contract price.
Many banks now even officially notify you where there is a difference of greater than 10% between valuation and contract price.
James
My folks taped the show while i was in bed catching up on my sleep [
]So, I watched it this morning. I think these stories do need to be aired, to warn the uninformed who are the ones likely to get burnt.
What I didn’t like about the story though, was that all of the problems became ‘the bank’s fault’. The bank should have told us not to buy, the bank should have told us the valuation, they should have told us we were being ripped off, should have gived us advice.
I disagree. The second your bank manager gives ‘advice’ he/she can be prosecuted for giving advice without a licence. So they can’t, and don’t do it. I do think it should be mandatory that copies of valuations be given to the customer though – after all it’s their app fees that are paying for it.
The best way to avoid this issue, is not to cross collateralise – that way you’ll definitely find out what the IP is worth, as the bank will only lend 80% of what their valuation is. Again, these scammers aren’t going to tell the people this though.
SIS, it said on the show that VO only makes $10K per property (or so his people said). Wonder if they tell different stories to different people?
[offtopic]VO is a big fat guy! Watching him trying to get into his car was pretty funny. Obvioiusly he was still well fed whilst in jail!
Cheers
MelOriginally posted by Still in School:… but the thing is, these people were warned, about how the properties, being sold to them, are $50k+ or more than the valuation, and that, if they did want the property, they would have to fund that extra $50k+ or more, by other means…
… even when warned, these people still went against the odds…
Cheers,
sisSIS I must have missed something how were they warned?
I must say all parties make good points on this issue. One thing that caught my attention is the stupid question asked by the reporter, “how does it feel when u come here to look at your old house”. I often wonder about reporters, I have been asked some ridiculous questions myself by reporters, and I think Danny Frawley got it right 2 weeks ago, when asked stupid questions.
About 2 weeks ago there was a boating mishap in Lake Alexandrina and some kids were stranded. The kids were saved however upon returning to the shore the kids shivering and teeth chattering, a reporter asks, “What was it like in the water” the poor kid freezing as can be, looks at the reporter and says cold and wet, and walks off shaking her head. She was only 8 if I remember correctly. Surely any one with an ounce of sense can see the kids are distraught and need to be left alone by the lights and cameras, what they really needed was their parents.
As far as rip off’s go. The biggest rip off artists in this country and possibly the entire planet would have to be insurance companies, followed by the banks and lawyers. Personally I think any one that trusts any of these industries needs to wake up real fast. The sad thing is its all legal! Why aren’t people kicking up to get laws changed here? Coz we just accept it. And why is that if a surgeon botches up an operation, not only do u have to still pay for it but you would find it very hard to find another Dr to support it was botched in the 1st place. Why do we still have to pay for botched up operations? If it was a car u would be enttiteld to take it back and get it fixed for free, but not your own body?Something wierd about that.
If a businessman finds he can make money selling something above market rate then good luck to him. It’s not illegal to sell things above market rates, car yards do it every day. Even Cash Converters often sell 2nd hand stuff for a higher price u can get it brand new and its all legal. At the end of the day it’s OUR OWN responsibility to do our own HOMEWORK. As they say supply and demand dictates the market value anyway. Do I agree with it NO I don’t, but it’s not against the law, its completely legal. As is selling me an insurance policy that I may get refused payment on, due to small fine poorly printed double Dutch in one long paragraph on the back of my policy.
Regards Bear
POSITVE CASHFLOW properties and Joint Ventures available!
For the BEST deals register via E-mail [email protected]
DONT MISS OUT!!!!!After looking at all the posts on this topic, it seems that we have the common emotional issue of people’s GREED getting involved…..
Something that comes up in many books. People take advantage of others, greedily wanting to instantly become rich……
I’m not saying homework is always easy to be done, but it CAN be done… Talking to local councils, local RE agents……
The Banks don’t give a rats….. as long as they lock you into another loan they have you by the bollocks….
Scott
Pelican Investments
http://www.pelican-invest.comPelican,
Not ALL of us have said that the people were greedy. I know it makes it easier when we all agree, but I just think they were some people buying into a market when there was no boom, wqhen RE wasn’t so popular, and when the ability to do research was not as easy as it is today.
When I bought my first IP, i had barely a clue as to what I was doing. It was partly good luck that meant I did well. I have seen others on this forum saying that as well about their first foray into property.
Luckily, I wasn’t surrounded by lying banks, solicitors, and RE agents- that helped.
kay henry
The message that shows such as 60 minutes need to ram home to protect people who don’t know any better include:
* Don’t sign anything on the day you inspect a property tied to a seminar.
* Insist on using your own lawyer
* Use your own mortgage broker or bank, not the one recommended (usually part-owned) by the seminar people.
Like anything there have not been many complaints when people have been buying at inflated prices on a rising market.
However, now the IP market has flattened and in some areas declined people are crying poor because they now realise that their lack of homework allowed them to be sucked in about the actual value of the property they invested in.
A big issue in the near future will be the many people who purchased units off the plan who will struggle to obtain finance when the properties are completed.And not to mention those buying in rural areas now…..even if they are ve+. They may not be too ve+ with a few interest rate rises.
I have, in the past, stood up against a couple of crooks on a website ripping people off with a lot of misleading information and expensive seminars and software.
The end result was that I received a death threat and the innocent suckers didn’t, couldn’t, even be bothered supporting me.
(just two people chose my side of the fence).
I do however understand why everyone was so apathethic because they were living in a dreamworld, thinking they were going to learn from the guru how to become rich so why should they support someone who wants to destroy their dreams ?
It made me realise that standing up trying to wake up everyone is a thankless (and even dangerous) task so why bother other than issuing a simple warning (like I did about sharks possibly lying in wait at the Expo).
Should one make it one’s life ambition to become
the exposer of crooks ?I don’t think so any more.
And neither should anyone else considering what both S.I.S. and Chan mentioned about the people on the bus i.e. that they had ample and open warning and that talking to them was an absolute waste of one’s breath.
Pisces
Hi,
A transcript of the interview can be found at: http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2004_04_04/story_1076.asp
Investing is a matter of matching risk with return.
It is also a matter of acquiring knowledge via a process called due diligence. Ultimately, if you don’t understand the nature of the investment then there’s a good chance that you’ll lose money.
I don’t accept that it is the bank’s responsibility to advise clients about the mertis of an investment as to do so would constitute advice, which opens a huge can of worms.
Yet, having said that, a lender is under an obligation to outline where the loan funds are being provided against what security and in what proportion. I’m very surprised that this was not done, since in the nitty gritty of the paperwork surely this would have been disclosed?!?
In the end it’s the same advice… beware investing outside your area of expertise and remember that there’s no such thing as a free seminar… someone pays somewhere down the line.
Cheers,
Steve McKnight
**********
Remember that success comes from doing things differently.
**********Steve McKnight | PropertyInvesting.com Pty Ltd | CEO
https://www.propertyinvesting.comSuccess comes from doing things differently
There seems to be a fundamental difference between advising someone on the merits of an investment and telling them that the valuation obtained by the bank is for tens of thousands of dollars less than the contract price.
There are a couple of issues from some of the program participants:
1. if I borrow money and as part of the terms the bank requires a valuation and I pay for the valuation why should I not be entitled to know the information
2. there has been an expectation by many people that the bank does a ‘valuation’ becuse this is what banks did less than 30 years ago. Maybe good banking practice should be to say to someone as you have sufficient security the bank is not interested in the value of the property you are buying and you should get an independent valuation if you have any concernscrj said:
“There seems to be a fundamental difference between advising someone on the merits of an investment and telling them that the valuation obtained by the bank is for tens of thousands of dollars less than the contract price.”
Exactly. So the banks loan $160k for a property their own people have valued at 110k? Why do they bother getting valuers unless they have an interest in knowing how much the property they’re loaning for, is actually worth?
It’s a scam that the banks were knowingly involved in. If we are speaking about responsibility, then we might realise the banks had a responsibility too.
kay henry
]
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. If you don't have an account, you can register here.
