GOOD GOLLY GOLLY GOSH…. HOW COULD I RESIST!
I AM a teacher,,, and if i ever hear anyone ever say that teachers are paid more then enough then they should really consider what their comment are based on…
ok, lets dispell some of the MYTHS about teachers point blank!
1) They dont work “normal hours” like the rest of society… OF course they dont!!! any good teacher usually starts work at 7:30am, by being at school preparing lessons, preparing assessment, having meetings with supervisors / parents etc etc…
bell goes at 3 pm, home by 3:15, rite??? WRONG!!! what garbage! most teachers during this time are again marking, on bus duty till 3:30, seeing parents or other teachers. when its time to finally go home at 4 or 5 pm they take home work with them as well… Teachers need to make a program for each term, this is done in the holidays, a program by the way, would never be LESS then 150 pages… and each lesson has to be broken down/ analyzed and justified under a microscope, because in this day and age of behavioral problems, learning difficulties and emotional problems that need to be detected and catered for. many teachers are at school on saturday at the school i work at to use the library, teacher resources and to make coppies of work sheets, to beat the rush monday morning… for a teacher to work 60+ hours a week in total is NOTHING NEW……2) A Good teacher starts on around $40-41 K first year, with 3 or 4 years of uni training, at a cost of at least $20K.. now i saw the news about these train drivers, who only need to train for 2 years, 1 year of which is basic platform duties, and then start on a salary of $47 K…. and im sure it costs them ALOT less to learn to drive a train…. AND they get paid for their over time!!!
3) Work out what it would cost to send a child to day care from 8 am till 3 pm. mon- fri, then multiply that by the 204 days a child is roughly at school per year, then multiply that again by the 25-30 kids per class… if a teacher was paid in this method they would be “earning” well over $130K a year….
4) The emotional drain a teacher has to deal with is shocking at times, watching kids go to school with bruises over their body, little boys bashing little girls caus thats what their daddy does at home, custody disputes brought into the playground and class room, finding out that the 12 year old girl across the hall from you, was sexually molested, and u just happen to hav taught that girl the previous year… all these things happen EVERY WEEK… and there is no other job i know of where the person has such a personal and emotional connection as with a teacher and student….
Teachers are under soooo much pressure these days, no wonder there is a shortage of teachers in some areas, male teachers need to cope with the constant stares of parents from some more conservative cultures, they need to arrange an appointment with the principal or deputy to report the fact that a girl ran into his leg by accident while on duty, just in case a parent see’s it and interprets it as something else…
Anyway, bottome line is that a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, and anyone who knows one, is going out with one or is married to one will agree.
I work as a casual primary school teacher, why? because i still want my freedom, and a life… and the money to work full time is not enough at this point in time to make me work full time… BTW a casual makes the same in 3 days as a full time teacher does in 5 days, but a casual does half the work and goes home after school with a clear mind… the whole system is not working and needs to be fixed…
So again, knock a teacher if you can justify (good luck) but i doubt many people will last a week in the classroom under some of the conditions teachers have to put up with…. and i wont even bring up the air conditioner fiasco thats happening in many classrooms at the moment…
Jason….
well done jason
but must admit you lost me when you confirmed how much teachers and train drivers get.
they are great wages for any graduate in just abt any profession. starting salaries for accountants, architects, business grads etc etc are much much lower
i know some of these professions with 10 yyrs experience earnign 50-60 k
i never said you didnt work hard or that the job involves stresses but i reckon these pay rates are just fine!!!
who agrees with me that 40k foirst year is damm good!!
hehe
Hi FW,
lol, you would kick me out… how unfair… [
]anyway to tell you more of what happened, i did have my fone on vibrate and it was silent too, but because i answered the fone, even though, i spoke low enough and told the person to call me back in about 45 mins, i still got kicked out of the class because i answered the fone, when all fones should be turned off…
well…. everything is ok… no real dramas or problems, but, just like the internet, i cant turn off the mobile fone, even if i have too, its just goes on silent and vibrate.
Cheers,
sisOriginally posted by aussierogue:who agrees with me that 40k foirst year is damm good!!
I agree Aussierogue, my wife is a lawyer and when she began work (at one of the largest law firms in Australia) after 5 years of study and two university degrees, she was on less than that. I can assure you she worked much longer hours than any teacher does. In fact one of the 1st years who was working particularly hard on a matter worked out that they were earning $3.30 an hour. She often worked until 10 or 11pm (sometimes 2/3 am or even allnighters) if there was an urgent matter on.
Sure, she could see the light at the end of the tunnel and after 5 or 6 years of that, the salaries were very good, but that is not why she did law at uni, she actually enjoys it.
I say to the teachers – you get paid quite well now and you knew what the salaries were when you opted to study teaching at uni. If you were happy to do teaching knowing what the salaries were, why complain so much. If you wanted a higher paying job, maybe you should have done something else.I wouldn’t want my child being taught by someone who is only in it for money. I want someone who wants to teach because they want to do it and love it.
I’m sure I have offended a few people but this is the area to do it.
‘Eat rich food, barbeque a yuppie’
Hey SIS
Maybe you need to get people to SMS you…
Or have a messagebank message that suggests it. []Keep smiling
FelicityInteresting, people want their children to get the best education but no one is willing to pay for it. A very strange paradox. In fact there seems to be a tone among some of you that teachers should work for free.
Its also strange that people on a website dedicated to wealth creation complain about others wanting to undertake wealth creation in their own way.
Other peoples rates of pay dont concern me, when I left medical school I was on under $30k per year and was working in excess of 100 hours per work….did it worry me…not really….I was grateful to be there and I was only there because my teachers took an interest in me and encouraged me to aim as high as I could.
Considering that the teaching curriculum hasn’t changed a geat deal since the first fleet I think lesson plans etc are a once a career effort, not every year. Maybe some minor tweaking here and there.
Teachers are very well paid out of uni, yet I have found the vast majority to be unsuited to any job involving human contact – they are mean spirited and rude to staff and parents.
Now and again there is a diamond in the rough, a good teacher who is also a good person. If the job is so stressful perhaps we should have mandatory retirement at 35 for teachers[
]Abuse of children in any form is terrible, but it isn’t only teachers who confront it.
If the union stopped bitching about low pay and put some effort into an updated curriculum instead of blocking it, maybe the public would have more faith in and respect for teachers.
Originally posted by ANUBIS:Considering that the teaching curriculum hasn’t changed a geat deal since the first fleet I think lesson plans etc are a once a career effort, not every year. Maybe some minor tweaking here and there.
I completely agree with your statement about the curriculum not changing year to year. I think the old tripe that some teachers come up with about working long hours and through holidays is a bit of a joke. The teachers I know certainly don’t.
They bring out the same notes every year – when I went to school they certainly did. When you do trial exams in years 10/11/12 they were alwaysvthe last years final exams. How could they do that unless the subject matter (ie. curriculum) stayed the same?
I think there are some great teachers in the system but there are also too many who did it at uni because that was the only thing they could get into at the time (eg. transfering from an arts degree). These are not the teachers I want teaching my kids.
‘Eat rich food, barbeque a yuppie’
Good to see some debate regarding teachers. In reply to Jason’s (TeacherK6) comments:
1: How many people do work “normal hours’ nowadays? The concept of a standard 9-5 job is rapidly disappearing. If teachers are spending so much time on lesson plans, etc, perhaps the B.Ed course should include a unit or two on time management skills.
As for the preparation of lesson plans and term programs, perhaps you can enlighten us as to why this occurs. Surely all teachers are following a set curriculum so that all students receive the same standard of education across the board. If each teacher prepares their own version of what they want to cover each term, then the consistency of our childrens education must be suffering huge variences. Perhaps this is a major reason behind so many children today suffering from the lack of a quality education? Following a set term plan would mean that teachers are not needing to supposedly ‘sacrifice’ their 12 week holidays. Campaigning for changes to the education system that will reduce the time demands on teachers and as a flow-on effect improve education via less stressed teachers, etc would go a longer way further in winning public support than striking each year for another 10% pay rise. As soon as you stop fighting for improvements to the system and start demanding more money, you instantly lose the hearts of those that will support you most.
2: To quote the WA Education Department:
“The Department of Education and Training pays teachers on an incremental scale through which they progress on an annual basis (subject to satisfactory performance). There are eight pay rates, or steps, in the teaching pay scale from Level 1.5 to Level 2.3. Graduate teachers starting work with the Department are placed on either the first (Level 1.5) or second (Level 1.6) salary step according to their level of training (four or five-year trained).
Four year trained beginning teachers are paid a salary of $38,102* in their first year. This compares favourably with the salaries paid currently to a newly qualified accountant ($23-40,000/average WA $30,000), an architect ($32,800-35,400) and an engineer ($35-45,000). Teachers at the top of the scale (known as Level 2.3) are paid a salary of $55,853*.”
Given that the average salary in Australia is around $37K, for a 22 or 23 year old to be earning an above average wage in their first year of employment is nothing to complain about. The Level 2.3 salary of $55K would group that teacher with the top 15% or so of salary earners, not exactly low paid.
3: What about the cost of child care? I thought we sent our children to school for you to educate with your 4+ years of specialist training, not to babysit them. If you don’t want to teach full-time because you don’t like the pay, but you believe that you could earn $130k performing child care, then perhaps you should chase the money along that career path.
4: It’s very sad that these sort of things occur to so many children. But as ANUDIST sad, it’s not only teachers who confront this on a daily basis.
The education issue at large is a far greater problem that needs to be addressed, so I’ll leave any further comments regarding it for now.
yessum and rugby fan – too true. looks like the teachers have gone quiet. there was something on the tv last night abt public sector wage rises being better than the average.
Aussierogue said:
“yessum and rugby fan – too true. looks like the teachers have gone quiet.”They have gone quiet. Maybe they are off doing some lesson plans [}
]Hi Yezzum,
“Given that the average salary in Australia is around $37K”
Not so – according to the ABS (Nov 03) the average adult full time earnings equate to an annual average salary of $48859 and the average full time adult total earnings equate to $51298 with the differential between public and private purse equating to ~$100/week.
“Surely all teachers are following a set curriculum so that all students receive the same standard of education across the board.”
In WA there is no set curriculum content and really hasn’t been for last 6 years (I understand other states are similarly placed). However there are expected standards of achievement we aim for for all children in key skill (as distinct from knowledge) areas.
Curriculum delivery has undergone significant changes as the world has become more aware of the brains thinking processes and the needs of the world has changed. Apparently we started to really learn how the brain around 10 years ago.
This, combined with the recognition that the worlds knowledge base doubles every 2 years or so, necessitate a shift in focus towards learning skills as distinct from learning finite facts ad infinitum as we did when we were at school.
This knowledge is having a huge impact on the teaching and learning styles – for some teachers more pronounced than others. As a broad brushed general statement – the changes are being more accepted at a primary school level than the secondary level – which is still heavily content focussed due to real and perceived constraints of higher education institutions.
One of the greatest challenges faced by all education systems is the rapidly approaching aging of the workforce – the average age of teachers in WA is 49’ish and the numbers entering the profession are likely to insufficient to offset attrition through retirement – let alone other departures.
As for are teachers paid too much (or worth it) really that is for individual community members to decide. I recently rejected a 10% pay offer over three years – I would prefer my 10% be used to pay for more teachers to reduce class sizes. But then I have my properties grown nicely for my future.
All in all – it’s the school principals who should get more [
]By the way – I would love a bit of that $120K/annum salary for principals someone mentioned earlier.
Derek
[email protected]Yezzum,
There is no set curriculum sad to say, but there are 6 Key Learning Areas that need to be covered. without going into a slanging match into who said what, i can say that if it was as simple as opening a book and just teaching then there wouldnt be an issue for more pay.
What is taught in a primary school is always changing, firstly to cater to the needs of the classroom as a whole (ie if there is a large proportion of a certain ethnicity) then you need to cater to individuals, and modify the lesson accordingly, perhaps u then modify your lessons again to cater for the environment the school is in, an outback school of 30 (total) kids will teach science very differently to a city school, yet use the same syllabus guidelines.
The “teaching” doesnt make teachers tired, its the paper work involved. If you need to refer a child for special help or behavioural problems, you need to provide a long paper trail of proof and documentation to justify it. Its a legal issue as well… the problems are getting fixed in the system slowly, but still, more needs to be done to lessen the paper work involved…Time management issues are a big problem, some schools are using experienced teachers to make up teaching units during school time while a casual looks after the class (something i DONT agree with) first year teacher does start off with a good salary, its the system as a whole that is letting them down. as someone else mentioned, many teachers are approaching retirement age.. and still want to be linked to the education of childern, but just dont have the strength any more to handle a class of kids. perhaps these people should be used to create a whole schools programming, (ie a desk job) while younger teachers “teach” and mark it…
There are so many “what if’s” and im sure many other professions ahe similar problems. Im sure we have all worked in a job and thought to ourselves “there must be a way of doing this better”…
Secondary teachers cannot be compared to primary teachers, as secondary teachers are dedicated to 1 or 2 subjects usually. they may teach the same lesson 2 or 3 times a day, and also do not have to worry so much about detecting learning problems or behaviour issues. A Primary teach needs to teach everything, thats why their university entrance mark is higher then a secondary teacher.
“Four year trained beginning teachers are paid a salary of $38,102* in their first year. This compares favourably with the salaries paid currently to a newly qualified accountant ($23-40,000/average WA $30,000), an architect ($32,800-35,400) and an engineer ($35-45,000). Teachers at the top of the scale (known as Level 2.3) are paid a salary of $55,853*.”
Ok, The WA pay rates are similar to the NSW rates, and teachers do get a pay rise every year for the first 8 years i believe (never worked full time so im not clued up on it exactly).. BUT can i just say that for a teacher to get 55 K a year, and if this is the top scale, then they would have had 8 years of work and experience behind them. Also, its interesting to note that the professions you mentioned all had one thing in common, (accountant, architect and engineer (throw in doctors and Lawyers) these people are all able to work for themselves from their own home if they so choose, and in doing so they are able to make as much or as little as they want. a Teacher does not hav this ability, my own solicitor started on less then what im making, but in 3 or 4 years his pay has gone well over the 6 digit mark… because his pay is based on performance, and the hours he puts in, a teachers however is not… so these professions cannot be compared in my opinion.
Anyway, this teacher hasn’t gone quiet (yeah rite) he just isn’t in the internet 24 hours a day…. [^]
Jason [
]g’day jason
yr point about other proffessions eventually getting paid more is taken but again i reckon you wld be surprised that other proffessions not eraning as much as you think
plus most of those proffesions you outlined dont work at home they work in offcies like evryone else.
so i dont think that point is validyou said that after 8 years a teacher earns 55 k. well thats only 30 yrs old – not bad – what does the average 40yr old teacher earn??
why do teachers start on such high salries???
with ref to stress, work loads etc. this has been well documented. so you know this prior to enrolling to become a teacher – if its that bad do something else.
i hear you say that this is not the point. well i say then getting paid more money doesnt change the fact that the job is tough. the same stressess are gonna be there
my personal feeling is that teachers have always had the general community on their side – including me. ive thought long and hard abt becoming one myself.
but i reckon the average jo reckons you guys are doing alright
by the way i reckon yr solicitor studied alot more than 3-4 years before he got his qualification. and in the current hecs environment would have alot higher debt to pay
Originally posted by aussierogue:g’day jason
…..
plus most of those proffesions you outlined dont work at home they work in offcies like evryone else.
so i dont think that point is validi said:
“from their own home if they so choose” i didnt state it as a fact that they all DO work from home.My accountant works from his home office, the podiatrist down the street works from his converted living room, the doctor in the street behind my house lives above her surgery and my architect friend works from his fitted out garage…
you said that after 8 years a teacher earns 55 k. well thats only 30 yrs old – not bad – what does the average 40yr old teacher earn??
Hmmm i didnt actually say that, i was going on the information from the WA figures quoted. i looked up the NSW info here http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Industrial/Salaries/teachers.html
and found that a 4 year trained teacher in NSW starts on 41,134… the rates for steps 1-3 are payable to uni students who choose to work at a catholic school as a casual or as a temp (not many ppl know that the Catholic system allows 3rd and 4th year teaching students to work as a teacher, but at a lesser rate . many uni students do casual work at catholic and private schools before they are qualified)
So to answer your question, a teacher working for 7 years will get $56,775 during their 8th year of full time service. BUT after this there are only 2 more pay scales to go, then no more pay increases, unless privatly negotiated (very rare unless u are at a level in the school higher then a normal teacher ie supervisor) so if you started working full time at 22, by 32 you would have hit your maximum salary…
why do teachers start on such high salries???
Because they are worth every cent!!!
my personal feeling is that teachers have always had the general community on their side – including me. ive thought long and hard abt becoming one myself.
but i reckon the average jo reckons you guys are doing alright
99% of teachers are “the average joe” btw
Jason
good answers teach – lets agree to disagree
ps – i want my teachers to be above average not joe average on obove average wages.
hehe – i can feel one coming back my way………
lol…
Debating with my year 6 kids on the benefits of home work is just as fun… lol (i tell them to work harder/smarter to achieve their goals, they tell me who is the hottest pop tart… woops, pop star) so i guess people have varying opinions on whats important at any given time
But its alllll good
Toodaloo, ive got marking to do lol and an IP inspection to organise…
Jason… [^]
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Dear oh dear…. The poor lost souls that believe teachers only work from 9-3….FYI. I am a teacher who has started working in Australia on technically my first year. I worked a year in UK and relief taught for a year but only 1 years service was recognised. So I am starting on about $41000.
I personally don’t think htat is very high considering clear that is only about $575 a week! After basic living costs and expenses that is very quickly eaten up and Cremin and I don’t even have kids yet!!!
Anyone can say what they like about the teaching profession but until they experience it for themselves, really they have no idea. I am not a teacher for the money and others certainly aren’t either. I am there for the pure pleasure of watching a child develop mentally, emotionally and spiritually. That is good enough for me.
Good luck to those who doubt the teaching profession and yes there are teachers out there who are crap but majority of teachers are dedicated souls who are there for the children and certainly not there for the money.
My two cents.
Scremin.Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
The salary rates quoted are interesting and perhaps different between the states. Salaries aren’t as high for independent school teachers in WA, they range between $28,455 and $45,157. Once you reach the highest level, well that’s it, regardless of age!
Westan is right, many teacher’s work right through the holidays and if you ever read a teachers award, they only actually get “4 weeks annual leave, that is taken in the first 4 weeks of the Christmas holidays”. The rest of the school holidays is DOTT time (Duties other than teaching ie: they are expected to have their preparation etc done during this time). Besides many teachers also work evenings for meetings with parents, have to go on camps where they are away from their families (they are not paid any extra for this, it’s part of their DOTT time and it is expected that they do it).
Yes, in the state system teachers can earn up to $55,000, but not untl they’ve reached the highest level ie: based on the number of years of training and the numbers of years Full Time equivalent experience.
I’m not saying they should earn more, but they definitely should be keeping up with general increases in wages across the general society and if they have to fight for that,then so be it.
Finally, when I look at the fact that this person is responsible for my child and my childs well being for 6 hours a day, well, I can’t put a price on that.
Lastly, I AM NOT A TEACHER and have no desire to be one!
PK
Fortune Favours the Bold.
I think teacher deserve to get pay as good as doctor or may be a bit less. They get abuse by student every day and have to cops it all the time.
If teacher got a pay rise I am happy for them. When my children grow up and go to school then I want all teacher to be the best teahcher and yes I am willing to pay if everyone does….
Good luck teacher and you all deserve your pay rise.
Warm Regards
ChanDollars
[Keep going, you’re on your way to Frolic Freedom!]
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