All Topics / The Treasure Chest / Trust Seminar Summary

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  • Profile photo of IshitaIshita
    Member
    @ishita
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 20

    Hi All,
    Apologies for the long post, but read on if you are interested in an overview of Trusts according to Perpetual Trustees. It all would have been gobbledigook [?] (never seen that word written before!!) if I had not read Wealthmagic beforehand by the way!!!
    I attended a free Seminar Held by Perpetual Trustees…(flagged by Terryw… thanks Terry). Here is a summary (from notes that I took).Remember, these seminars are held to promote the services of the organisation, however,there was little pressure to “sign up”, so that was good.
    How trusts work

      They are a place to hold assets
      Income is distributed from them
      Investments stay in the trust until they are gifted or trust is closed

    Typical Structure

      Appointer and Trustee (individual or corporate) {Limited liability benefit mentioned}
      Mum, dad and child 1 and child 2

    They draw a definite line between personal assets and business assets
    Protects you and your business from things like

      Bankruptcy
      Legal Action
      Ex spouse of a child

    Caution – protection is not “grandfathered” (have no idea what that means, even after asking for clarification – so if anyone wants to help out on this, that would be good)
    Other Wealth protection vehicles

      Superannuation
      Place in spouse’s name
      Testimentary Trust (only comes into being after death…for the control freaks amongst us[:0)])

    Tax Advantages

      Income splitting amongst beneficiaries
      Maximising concessionally taxed income (streaming)
      o Franked dividends
      o Depreciation
      (If someone could explain how this one is different to income splitting, I’d appreciate it)
      Minimising CGT
      o Distribute capital gain to low income earners
      Changing circumstances

    o Allocation of income not fixed
    o Maximise tax efficiencies
    (This advantage of changing circumstances I take to mean the benefit of easily being able to change the way beneficiaries are gifted based on changing tax positions…or just if you don’t like them anymore!!!)
    Cautions

      Transferring own home to trust – stamp duty, land tax, crystallising CGT on transfer
      Distributing to Minors amounts above allowable gift amount (approx $600) attracts tax of something like 66cents in the dollar up to $14K and then it drops to 47c (called punitive tax)

    Testimentary Trust

      Incorporated in will
      Spreads assets amongst beneficiaries
      At Trustees discretion
      Children not subject to punitive tax

    Example: a very wealthy couple have a child with a drug problem and if they bequeathed a percentage of their estate equally to their children, the drug addicted child would more than likely squander all of their portion…at once. This way they are able to manage distribution of income to that child in a steady way.
    Financial Planning

      Diversify across all asset classes (property, shares, what are the other 2, I did not right them down!!) This will give you a more consistently reliable return

    Shares were also discussed briefly and I won’t include unless asked, although I can’t resist the following stat. Optimum number of shares to own is between 11-15.
    Family Trust User Criteria

      Need for asset protection
      Family members with little or no other income
      High level of non-super investment income
      Little or no CGT on entry (not sure I understand this one)
      Immediate and future estate planning considerations

    That’s all. Hope its of interest/assistance to others.
    Ish

    Profile photo of Tasman PropertyTasman Property
    Participant
    @tasman-property
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 126

    Very interesting Ishita, thank you for the summary.

    I can fill in a couple of the gaps you mentioned:

    Protection is not grandfathered means if someone is suing you, you cannot simply set up a trust and ‘protect’ your assets. I think. [;)]

    Streaming (to maximise concessionally taxed income) is the same as income splitting, but relates more to the tax status of different kinds of income. eg. if some of the income generated within the trust is interest from a bank account within the trust, there is no tax advantage. But if some other income is generated within the trust from share investments, it could have franking credits. Not only can you split the income between the benefeciaries, you can choose who will receive the specific income with the franking credits in this case (or depreciation in the form of property income).

    Financial planning – 4 asset classes are Cash (like bank accounts, term deposits), Fixed Interest (bonds, corporate or government type investments), Shares, Property.

    Last but not least, in order to move your assets into a new family trust it will trigger a capital gains tax event (as the trust is the new owner, you effectively sell your property to the trust). This can cost you in terms of stamp duty, and if you have owned the asset you want to add in to the trust for a while and there is a large capital gain – it could mean a lot of tax! This is often the case with property, the only opportunity at the moment for some people is if they are sitting on shares with a loss – these could be transferred into a trust with no CGT.

    Hope this helps.

    Profile photo of The DIY Dog WashThe DIY Dog Wash
    Member
    @the-diy-dog-wash
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 696

    Ishita

    Thanks that was a good post.[:D]

    quote:


    Ex spouse of a child

    Caution – protection is not “grandfathered” (have no idea what that means, even after asking for clarification – so if anyone wants to help out on this, that would be good)


    I am going to have a stab at this one; I think (but do not know for fact, that this means while the trust is protected from ex spouses of children, the childrens own assets are not protected from the ex spouse.

    Having typed that now I don’t know how close I am, maybe someone else wants to have a go.

    Cheers
    Leigh K[:D]

    Read, learn, grow but most of all just do it.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Thanks Ishita

    What was in it for Purpetual trustees? Do they set up trusts and what do they charge?

    And did htey mention Hybrid Trusts?

    I think Grandfathering means it won’t be retrospective. ie won’t apply for assets already owned. eg if you currently own a house and then sell it to a trust just before you go bankrupt, the courts can undo that transaction.

    Terryw
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Stuart WemyssStuart Wemyss
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    @stuart-wemyss
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    Post Count: 598

    Excellent post Ish.

    Cheers

    Stu

    Property & Finance News
    at http://www.prosolution.com.au

    Profile photo of chericheri
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    @cheri
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 23

    thanks I****a,
    a very informative and easy to read post on a sometimes confusing topic.
    much appreciated.
    rie[:)]

    Profile photo of wilandelwilandel
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    @wilandel
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 761

    Hi Ish,

    I’m with the others. Very interesting.

    Thanks,[:)]

    Del

    Profile photo of Tasman PropertyTasman Property
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    @tasman-property
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 126

    Hey Ish… I guess that’s what we will all call you from now on that we know the forum will delete any damn profanity it comes across (tee hee).

    Profile photo of IshitaIshita
    Member
    @ishita
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 20

    Terry,

    They mentioned the name Hybrid Trusts, but there were no slides on them at all, so can’t say anything further on that. One thing I noticed was that they did not allow questions. When a guy asked a question, he was basically asked to ask it of the consultant at the end, as the question pertained specifically to his situation. When the guy said that he believed the question to be quite general and that others would probably like to know the answer, they basically still avoided answering it.

    The question was a good one, so I’ll ask it here.

    If a loss is incurred by an asset in a trust, can you distribute the loss to highest taxed beneficiary so that they can claim the loss?

    They certainly did not discuss their fee structure, but one of consultants said that if you were interested in their help, the guideline was that you needed to have approx $500K of assets to place in the trust and about $5000 available for admin fee per year.

    At the end there was a questionnaire asking for feedback and asking permssion to contact you and some glossy brochures to take home of course!!!

    Ish

    Profile photo of IshitaIshita
    Member
    @ishita
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 20

    Thanks Tas Investor…you can imagine the childhood I had, can’t you [B)] [8D]

    Ish [:D]

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Ishita

    Thanks again.

    I think I can answer that question. Discretionary Trusts cannot distribute losses. Losses must be quarrantined in the trust until the Trust makes a profit. I am not sure about unit trusts?

    A hybrid Trust can partially get around this as the unit holder borrows money to buy the units, and so is able to claim the interest on this loan against of non trust income. (I think).

    Terryw
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of babu88babu88
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    @babu88
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 45

    Hi All,

    I also attended the Family Trusts seminar by Perpetual Trustees. To me, it was fairly basic knowledge as I have done further reading on the subject. They do not set up trusts (you probably have to see a lawyer for that) – they only act as trustee for the trust once it is set up, hence collect the fee for administering the trust for compliance with various regulatory bodies and providing advice on asset allocation etc

    Profile photo of hwd007hwd007
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    @hwd007
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 247

    Tasman

    “Last but not least, in order to move your assets into a new family trust it will trigger a capital gains tax event (as the trust is the new owner, you effectively sell your property to the trust). This can cost you in terms of stamp duty, and if you have owned the asset you want to add in to the trust for a while and there is a large capital gain – it could mean a lot of tax!”

    Can you sell your property to your trust at under market value ? or even so you make a capital loss ? what capital gains tax implications could that have ?

    I ‘m told stamp duty is based on fair market price.

    Profile photo of lynne14lynne14
    Member
    @lynne14
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 29

    Thank you Ish.ita
    that was a great summary. It does point out that I need to do a lot more research about trusts. But have a better understanding now.
    Lynne

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    hwd007

    Good try again. You can sell it for $1 if you wish, but you must pay tax and stamp duty at the market value.

    Terryw
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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