Forum Replies Created
This initial post was addressing setting up an LLC and EIN. We charge $200 for both which eliminates the hassle for investors to set up the unknown for the fee from the Secretary of State and time cost. As we are also based in the US we act as a registered agent where we have the benefit of any correspondance including LLC renewal being sent to us where we can email direct to our clients.
Setting up an LLC is a vehicle which allows investors to seperate other assets from their Australian companies or properties whilst also allowing the organiser to sign off on settlement documents, set up ultilies, insurances and manage the investment without Australians having to travel to the US.
In general an LLC is a pass through entitiy which can be cheaply renewed each year. It does become complicated and more expensive for tax purposes once you have multiple members or register as a company.As advised by our accountant you CAN NOT REGISTER AS A "S CORPORATION" AS A US NON RESIDENT AS A SHAREHOLDER. I suggest people discuss this with their accountant as I have read many people suggesting this is an option for Australians. Registering as a corp may also discredit the abilty to claim individual tax credits and tax advantage of the double tax treaty from Australia. Also view the Geoffrey rule which advises that if business is conducted within a State then state tax is payable beyond what state your "Master Enitity" is held.
Love talking to fellow investors, happy to chat about any questions investing in the US – through us or not.
Ajay,
We are very real to our viewing clients and I guess our videos are designed to show people the property as accurately as possible. We understand your lighthearted post but YouTube is a brilliant way for us to show everyone what is available here in Atlanta.
When we film a property, it is not for entertainment value but for our buyers who deserve to understand exactly what they are buying, the work that is required on the property and the area they are buying in. For them we take a great deal of pride in showing the most honest and translucent aspect that we can for these clients who are time poor, busy or otherwise unable to visit the States.
For those that are fortunate to have the time to visit us (and most do) we are very proud to show our product, the area they are investing in and our previous sales and renovations.
I challenge any other company to offer the same insight whilst providing wholesale deals directly from the banks without overpricing heir service and renovations.
We hope to continue these in the future and although they may be a little funny we feel it conveys the opportunity of each property reasonably well. Keep viewing and naturally you are always more than welcome to call if you have any questions at any time.
Thanks Mate
Every month at the end of month such as tonight we want to give every one of our owners good news on the end of month statement. We were on the phone to owners tonight regarding a few late rents we are chasing up where my leasing agents were out until midnight last night collecting the final rents.
There are incredible opportunities investing in the USA Foreclosure market and yet it does need to be backed up by sturdy, reliable and trustworthy property manager; which with confidence we feel we have in Atlanta.
The best way in the Atlanta Market to screen tenants and reduce tenancy risk is by running full criminal and credit checks. We do not accept any tenant, nor should anyone else, that has a previous eviction. We also call all previous landlords and check their identity off tax records plus ask for the last 3 pay slips from the tenant. We have knocked back over 150 applications in the last two months.
We also have many brilliant tenants who love their newly renovated properties and hundreds of happy owners.
To be competitive in the market we create a freshly renovated property with particular attention to the little aspects that attract tenants. We are very proud to show owners their properties and the completed renovations. For owners that are unable to visit their home we video the home including the subdivision to show the surrounding neighborhood. I know of no other company that is as transparent and honest in assisting investors nor with as much passion as we are.
Knowing the Atlanta area which is spread over a massive area we have developed fantastic relationships with external leasing, insurance and corporate relocation agents who constantly compliment us on the renovations of our homes. We try our hardest to find the best wholesale deal for our clients through the foreclosure process. There are many companies who advocate a turnkey product but are you as the purchaser really aware of their original purchase price and the true renovation cost?
When we started here we interviewed many property management companies and found that we were not able to find a competent property management company to look after our clients. We personally begun our property management company here as Michael has previous built very successful property management companies in Australia and we have attempted to replicate our own expectations which are different to those in the US.
We are very caring of our clients and work exceptionally hard to satisfy our 250 + owners. We love what we do and have a passion for property.
With purchasing for clients, we have sat down with many owners or potential investors to discusses the why, how and where on property; including property location, popular school districts, pitfalls of investments and individual investment goals.
We invest in Atlanta ourselves, live and breathe the market and are growing the second fasted property management company in Atlanta with a close-knit experienced team.
Mike & Bron
<moderator: delete advertising>
Hi Dean,
Just wondering how you went with your development and whether you proceeded. If so would love to hear about the experience that you had.
Kind regards,
Bron
Most clients investing from Australia would prefer to borrow money from Australia as it is safer and more easily controllable. You will also probably get a better interest rate too.
If you get an unsecured loan you can use it for any purchase you choose – generally a car loan will be secured against the car i believe but a personal loan allows you to use for any purpose you choose.
Just out of interest – why Bristol?
Our attorney opens bank accounts with Wells Fargo for all our clients. We set up their LLCs.
Banks accounts are free business banking accounts and LLC cost $150 where were also obtain and EIN (IRS tax ID) for you.
No need to go to the US if you don't want you.
Guys,
We have many clients buying through their SMSF. We set up an LLC which owns the property and is in turn owned (or has a member of) the SMSF.
Naturally a SMSF is not permitted to borrow funds – except to pay ATO debts i believe – which is crazy but it is what it is.
We set up bank accounts in the LLC name which just collect the funds and then distribute back to the Super fund quarterly.
Hope this helps
Zads,
Welcome! Mate you may have a little difficultly with finance as mentioned by the post above from Speedy.
There are some companies however that lend hard money at very high interest rates but please be very very careful as these types of deals can bring you unstuck. There is no mercy in the hard money market in the USA.
I can not agree more – it is a very different market place that what we are used to in Australia. It is a different mentality in comparison to Oz.
You have to know what you are doing and yes be very careful of buying direct through real estate agents over there as they will just sell you what ever they can for a commission – they don't really care what you buy.
It seems that there are some buyers agents who have been in the game for a while and are finding good deals for people with high returns in reasonable cities and areas. Do your research as there are some unbelievable deals out there at present that you just can't walk past. Huge 4 bedroom houses for $50K in reasonable areas with very good rental returns.
Hi Dean,
We used these guys who did a brilliant job relocating houses through the Newcastle 2007 floods. Michael and I are in the States so I had to dig through my email and copied their details as follows:
Feel free to give Don a call on 0408 236 391 or 02 45682009 if you have any questions or would like to arrange an inspection.
I hope all goes well with the development. Let me know if we can help further,
Bron
We work very hard to find to secure the best wholesale foreclosure deals in Atlanta for our clients. We work 18 + hours a day sourcing properties, tenants, managing renovations and any other issues for our respected clients. The US foreclosure housing market is not a market for the faint hearted but can be very lucrative. The near parity of the dollar, the greatly depressed prices and strong rental yields are a huge incentive compared to the Australian residential housing sector.
I am available to all our clients by phone, email and Skype and it is not uncommon to receive a phone call at 3am because someone has a concern and it is not a problem because that is my job. We are very proud to be able find brilliant foreclosure properties and are very picky with the properties we choose? Our largest complaint is that we do not have enough stock.
I currently have 400 offers on the table to banks, employ two full time diligent brokers, a full time Aussie assistant and we have a full time American Property Manger with over 14 years experience in the Atlanta market. Over 50% of our homes receive applications during the renovation term. We advertise as soon as the home is presentable enough to show without potential tenants tripping over power tools. We have a brilliant personal relationship with most of our clients that relies on them being open to communication and advice that we offer; especially being here and living in Atlanta.
To the above query: If I advise a client that their property WHICH AT TIME OF PURCHASE WAS an owner occupied short sale and presented very well with furniture, we need to work through the issues presented. We did manage a brilliant purchase price on this property and some work is to be expected.
After multiple property management showings and following the advice of our dedicated property manger, the property requires painting to be more competitive in the market for tenancy. It is our job to advise the owner. I would wish to have open communication with my owner, resolve the issue, paint the property, tenant the home and create a productive result. Here is a competitive market and a well presented home will make all the difference in being able to tenant the home. We purchase properties direct from banks and will have to occasionally work through respective issues with our respective clients. Integrity is not an issue.
I love talking to ne w enquiries about their concerns and excited questions about the US market, particularly towards targeted statistics which is my passion. If our investors or any potential investors have any queries on investing in the US and the process which is vastly different from Australia, I would be very open to chat on 0011 1 404 441 3360 or on Skype at toprentalreturns. We do not expect you to become a client. When we were initially looking to invest in the US we were frustrated at the unnecessary veiled secrecy and covered seminars. We are all investors here supposedly to help each other.
Both Michael and I are very reasonable to chat and recently had a young couple stay with us for 4 months who were looking to learn how to invest in the American market. We wish we had the same opportunity when we were starting out.
We invested in mining town markets in Australia which were certainly more volatile than the US markets. The US has different parameters and need to be dealt with the respect they deserve.
We are always here for any assistance regarding any enquiries you may have on the Atlanta market.
Hi Dean,
We relocated two homes from Newcastle to Glen Innes. We secured the homes at no cost as it saved the owners the fees to demolish and pay for the waste costs. We had to lodge a DA withg the relevent councils and pay for a house relocation company to cut the properties in half, disconnect services, frame the homes for stability and hire travel escorts and ensure permits were in place to travel.
We find that three bedroom homes rent more readily than two particularly in regional areas, but if you have a spare Sydney block this may be more appealing. It is not a cheap or easy exercise particularly when you have to have approval for the block you are relocating to, arrange for the correct footings and inspections on the other side, rejoin the homes, plumbing, electricals etc. It may be more cost effective to give the property away than demolish and you also need to work with the schedule of the mover/relocator.Try listing it on the trading post for a small sale fee for a few weeks. If it does not move advertise the house for free. Be aware of your new development time line as well. It may be a saving in your opportunity cost to add the demolishion as part of the DA/BA. You may even make more money by advertising the components such as windows and fittings, kitchens etc as part of a weekend garage/building sale.
Let me know if you wish to discuss further.
Best wishes on the new development.Hi Luke,
Michael here again.
Cashflow deals are extremely difficult to achieve and it has taken me some time to get this under control – especially with respect to ongoing management. We have hired our own manager and have a large client base for whom we manage properties in Atlanta.
There are many agencies working out of Australia but we have moved to the US ourselves and i must thank you for your assistance and warnings many months ago which promoted me to go over and do it ourselves rather than rely on a Aust based company.
Thank you mate and hope to chat again soon.
World Changer,
Mike here – we haven't spoken for a few months but i must agree with you totally.
Buying undervalued property is the prime objective. We have now found 65 deals for clients and have most of them returning good profits. It has taken me 6 months in the US to get property management under control – and i ended up just hiring my own property manager which is working brilliantly.
There are lost of issues with US purchases but we are always here to help fellow aussies invest.
Jeff r,
I can assist you through what we have done and how we worked around the issues involved with US property. my contact details are below.
Ripeka,
It is sometimes difficult to know what form of communication each client is looking for. We do try to have a informative conversation with each new inquiry as there is so much info to go through.
LLCs, Bank Accounts, the process, tenancy issues, foreign exchange accounts, how we select properties, etc. the list goes on..
We do ask for peoples phone numbers when they initially email us as we do like to deal with people personally. We run a very strong business and like to be able to communicate openly which can be sometimes difficult on email. We are always free to speak on the phone but will admit we are often out in the field and not in front of our computers as much as we would like to be. Such is the nature of sourcing properties for people. We inspect over 100 properties per week plus all our properties under renovation and this takes almost every sunlit hour.
We often end up spending an hour or so on the phone to each client initially answering questions and we do apologise if skype was not the best form of communication for you personally. Most new clients do prefer to chat with us either on the phone or over the internet and as you may appreciate many people prefer to speak with us personally rather than back and forward on email. We do work very hard and are often up to 1 or 2 am in an attempt to fit in with Australian times.
We have become very busy and do have many very happy clients – despite "husband's" comments. We now have a full time assistant who answers most of our 1-150 daily emails especially as we work an 8-10 hour day looking at real estate and then come home to our computer work each evening.
If anyone has any questions, i am in Sydney for a few weeks and am more than happy to speak with you. Drop me an email or we may communicate by phone if preferable.
Mike
Hi Bronwyn here from Top Rental returns.
Tenancy is an extremely important component of investing in the US as with all property investment. We get a lot of inquiries from people like yourselves who wish to know about vacancy, the rental market demand and the difference between leasing property in the States as opposed to Australia. A vacant property yields no return and becomes a liability.
We have purchased over 65 properties for clients and besides the properties under current renovation have only 3 which are presently vacant for more than a few weeks. One is in Cascade place and we have an approved application for a tenant to move in shortly. The second is in Avon Ave and we are certain to obtain a tenant in the coming weeks and the third is not managed by us so we have no control over the tenancy of this property.
This situation occurred initially as we were using external property management companies in Atlanta to lease and manage our properties after they had finished being renovated but we found that we were not getting the desired results in terms of showings and successful leases and therefore listed all properties ourselves. Since we have done this we had had strong enquiry and converted most of these to signed leases.
We took it upon ourselves to solve this issue and have set up our own property management arm of the company and have employed a full time property manager so we now handle all property management functions in house. This was the best way to obtain a true understanding on tenant demands in the rental market and the associated issues.
Kimberly is our new property manager and has been with us now for 2 months, she has over 14 years of property management experience in Atlanta. We now personally list all our clients’ properties on the broker access sites which enable all agents in Georgia to show the property to their potential tenants. We also list on major websites such as Trulia, Hotpads, etc. Kimberly also conducts showings of all properties to our individual inquiries – her phone doesn’t stop ringing.
We are quite aggressive with our marketing and try in a competitive market to offer a well presented property with good street appeal and location to the tenancy market without over capitalising on renovations.
We also get great feedback from tenants how helpful we are and will try to direct tenants to look at multiple properties we have for rent not just the property they have inquired about.
There are some properties that tenant before renovations have completed and others that take a little longer – this is no different to investing in properties in Australia. We have developed a very clear understanding of the types of properties that tenants are after and actively target those for our clients.
Our builders are often approached by people in the area whilst the properties are being renovated and graciously shown prospective tenants through and taken their contact details. We have leased a few properties this way. We often receive comments that these are the best presented houses prospective tenants have seen so we know we are orientating these renovations perfectly to prospective tenants.
There are two types of tenants “Open Market” and “Section 8”. Section 8 is a government Housing program where the majority if not all the rent (depending on the tenants circumstances) is paid direct to the landlord or their agent. Our company is registered with all 7 Atlanta Housing Authorities to be able to process Section 8 tenancy applications.
A positive benefit is that this is a secure income stream as the rent is paid monthly by the federal government which some landlords prefer. All our open market tenants do need to supply proof of income and we conduct credit and criminal checks on every applicant.
We also engage leasing agents that solely source tenants. One of our agents puts up signs in major intersections and we receive a lot of inquiry from him.
Example 1. – One of our tenants who is a bus driver for the MARTA public transport system was swerving to miss a pedestrian that ran out in front of her and ran into a pole that had a “house for rent” sign on there and called as she thought this was a sign.
She was only moving as the current landlord she had refused to maintain the property. She loves the house and gave me a big hug when we signed the lease with her and her husband who runs a landscaping company. They should stay in the property for a very long time. We achieved the full rent asked of $900 per month.
Example 2. – Another family moved into one of our properties which they lived across the road from straight after renovation. Their property was going into foreclosure and they were forced to move. We achieved the full asking price of $850 per month.
Example 3. – We just received an open market application for a property in Jonesboro for $1250 per month. We initially quoted the client $1,100 per month.
Example 4. – One home in Alder Ln in the West End just had a Police Officer move in. Her mother lives over the road and wanted her close by. Unfortunately public Service wages are low in comparison to Australia and as a single mother her wage could only support $850 not the $900 we were asking. Her references were brilliant and we thought the quality of the tenant was worth reducing the rent by $50 per month – $12.50 per week.
Example 5. – Section 8 rents vary depending on multiple factors. 1185 Lakewood was tenanted for $1151 per month we quoted our client $1,000. It was held up through the section 8 process but we pushed it through to achieve a positive end result.
Example 6. – Other section 8 rents have come slightly below our rental comparisons but the owner has the option of declining this and looking for an open market tenant or accepting with a guaranteed monthly rent. E.g. Mayflower Avenue we listed for $1000 per month and the Atlanta Housing Authority offered $944.
We chose Atlanta for the population growth it has achieved and the predicted property growth and diversity of economy along with the mildness of climate and depressed property prices. If anyone is considering investing in the States or wants some tips on research I am happy as always to chat about property.
US property investment along with Australian property investment does carry risk of vacancy. This is actually the main risk of property investment however we do try to mitigate this as much as possible through strategic purchasing, correct property presentation, accurate pricing, active marketing and following up with good property management.
We are more than happy to discuss the property management process with anyone interested even if you are looking to invest in other states in the U.S. I recently had a discussion with one lady who was struggling to rent her property in Ohio and was advised to move the tenant in before approval of the Section 8 paperwork which has in turn caused a few issues. We are always here to help.
We have a list of every property and rents achieved on each but i don’t feel this forum is the place to display such information so i may post it on our website over the next few days. Reply to us if you wish for any assistance or if you have further questions.
Hey Guys,
Michael and Bronwyn here – just landed back in Atlanta from our travels around Oz to meet with our clients.
We thank our lovely client above from giving us such a wrap and we are working hard on her investment property.
We do have some fantastic deals coming through so feel free to contact us as we are a property couple living herein the US working hard on finding the right deals for ourselves and clients.
Email us at [email protected]
Check our our self made web site to see who we are http://www.toprentalreturnsusa.com
On simply give us a call on +1 404 441 3360sapphire101 wrote:The previous sales data for 677 Alta Place regarding the $22,500 sale appears on the "Property Data" document Mike & Bron are giving to investors if they care to read it thoroughly, but is not mentioned in the promotion of the property. Is this just a "newbie" oversight perhaps, however it does have some bearing on the deal methinks, how it is promoted and if correct shows quite clearly how far prices have dropped in this part of town.$355k down to $22k wow, that's amazing.and this from a born and bred Atlantan property investor after he perused the same documents…
"…. Its some tricky business here in Atlanta. Certainly there are seemingly amazing houses for the money all over the place, but to me location, location, location still rules.I generally do not focus at all on areas that I would not be comfortable going into. This does not mean there isn't money to be made. The Alta location is off Bankhead Ave and is unfortunately one of the most undesirable corridors in Atlanta"……
Sapphire,
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, we have been flat out.
It’s great to have our first professional critic. Thank you for your praise. We know we are doing very good things for people. There are few errors you have made once again due to not contacting us directly which in turn has lead to making assumptions as to the way we work. Most importantly 677 Alta Place Atlanta – the duplex which you said was purchased 6 months ago for 20K is in fact a REO or bank owned property which we have purchased on behalf of our client. We do not hold and on sell any of our own property preferring to source great deals for investors direct from the banks foreclosed inventory.
Please find attached, as you may not have seen, the tax records for this property. These have come from the FMLS listing details which we pass onto clients and details the county appraised values, sales history and mortgage details as you have explained in your post. The figure you discussed of $22,500 was the actual foreclosure deed on the property on 12th Nov 09 – not a sale price. The last actual market sale on the property was 29th Nov 2005 for $255,000. We are more than happy to go through these reports that can appear confusing even to experienced investors. We do feel it is essential to provide as much information as we can for people to make an educated decision and welcome people to question the figures.
Last Market Sale: Recording Date: : 11/29/2005 Deed Type: : Warranty Deed Settle Date: : 09/27/2005 Owner Name: : Hsi Asset Securization Corp Sale Price: : $355,000 Seller: : Carter Jimmy L Document No: : 41414-424 Price Per Sq Ft: : $113.35 Sales History: More History Recording Date: : 11/12/2009 11/29/2005 05/16/2005 01/24/2003 Sale/Settlement Date: : 10/06/2009 09/27/2005 05/05/2005 12/18/2002 Sale Price: : $22,500 $355,000 $214,900 $330,000 Buyer Name: : Hsi Asset Securization Corp Hassan Tayyeba & Naim F Carter Jimmy L Muhammad Zakiyyah Seller Name: : Hassan Naim & Tayyeba Carter Jimmy L Novastar Mortgage Inc Carter Betty Document No: : 48531-197 41414-424 40013-427 34068-215 Document Type: : Foreclosure Deed Warranty Deed Limited Warranty Deed Warranty Now we have addressed that issue lets go into the deal a little closer as you have chosen this one as the example.
We have been very conservative with the figures we have provided the client presenting under estimated rents based on comparable data and over estimating renovation costs. Our final build quote came in nearly 10K cheaper which of course our client is delighted with. This property will then have a net 25% return – where else in the world can you achieve that?
Expenses include ongoing insurance, property management and county taxes.
Taxes on foreclosed properties are based on the county assessed value which occurs generally every two years. Therefore as we are dealing with properties that sold for high prices in the boom the county taxes appear high. Due to the low purchase price our clients are picking up properties for, we suggest they request a new appraisal of the property which in turn may reduce the county value and therefore the county taxes required to be paid.
We cannot know what the future taxes are to be upon reappraisal and have therefore done our best to estimate/calculate this figure.
We do not know of any other agent in Australia or the US providing the level of service we do, plus the added benefit of dealing with Australians on the ground. We do not load any services or take trails or kickbacks from any referrer and actively hunt for the best services and prices for our clients.
We search for properties based on our client’s interests and our strict requirements. It is a balance to find desirable property in quality areas for a low purchase price. We could find property in prestigious areas such as Buckhead with a much larger budget, but they would not return 20% net ,defeating the purpose of investing in high yielding property which is what we are all after on this forum.
We do not sell property we would not be comfortable to buy ourselves. We walk away from many properties where the area, the street or the property do not stack up. We know people would expect no less of us. We believe our standards are quite high.
Alta Place is a quiet no through street where the neighbours are very friendly and houseproud. Not what I would call “the hood” in anyway shape or form. It may be interesting for your Atlantan contact to drive the street and take a look. And finally yes we agree this is a brilliant high yielding deal, as does the client.
This is not a market where you can buy anything simply because it is cheap and we agree that location is important. Not all areas off the Bankhead Hwy are suitable to invest in but this pocket is.
Rather than batting backwards and forwards on the forum please give us a call to go through any queries you may have as we are happy to discuss our process and the way we invest at anytime and would love to hear about your investment experiences in the US.
At the end of the day we are all on this forum looking to achieve the goal of investing in high yielding property and it would be far more helpful for people to hear about others investment experiences rather than tear apart the efforts of people are trying to or thinking about having a go.
By the way we are here in Atlanta everyday and if you would like to drop in we would love to show you or anyone around our properties. Once again please contact us via our contact details below. We would like to show you a bit about us, what we do, our conviction to our clients and our process.
For hardworking Australians investing in US foreclosure real estate we are trying to do very good things for people just like us.
Although it is imperative to understand the risks involved with any investment or purchase we do believe it to be more fruitful for longtime forum goers like yourself to lead by personal example, particularly if the experience relates to the forum at hand. Otherwise it does appear to be nitpicking at those sharing and having ago by those that are not. Thoughts?
Atlanta Georgia
<!– Welcome to Atlanta, Georgia. The official home of Atlanta travel information for visitors and meeting planners. Visiting Atlanta, Georgia for the first time or returning once again? You can access all your Atlanta travel and tourism information right here including: events, attractions, accommodations, dining, travel packages, gay, shopping and more. –> Atlanta Population and Atlanta Demographics
Atlanta Population:
- 4,917,717 in the 28-county Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area,
designated by the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce - 3,813,700 in the 10-county Atlanta region
- 429,500 in the City of Atlanta
Source: Census Bureau, 2006; Atlanta Regional Commission, 2006
Ask any Atlantan to name a word to describe the changing Atlanta population, the word dynamic often comes to mind. It describes the rapid changes the city has seen and will see in Atlanta demographics over the next 10 years.
In the past six years, the metro area has added more than 142,000 people annually, more than any other in the United States. At this growth rate, the Atlanta, Georgia population of the metropolitan area is predicted to be more than 5.5 million people in 2009.Atlanta has no natural boundaries, so the metropolitan area is large, encompassing 8,480.27 square miles. Across the region, 28 counties and 140 municipalities govern. The City of Atlanta, in the center of the metropolitan area, encompasses 131 square miles.
Growth means the Atlanta population has become more diverse. In fact, the city's racial diversity is greater than the nation as a whole. Atlanta is also younger than the U.S. population with an average age of 33.8 compared to 36 for the population as a whole. More than 35 percent of those who moved here from 2000 – 2004 came to Atlanta from a different state. The largest percentage of people came from New York and New Jersey.
If you are planning a visit to Atlanta, be warned. Many people who visit fall in love and decide to call Atlanta home. With great weather, diverse Atlanta population and strong economy, it's easy to see why.
Sources: Atlanta Regional Commission, Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce
- 4,917,717 in the 28-county Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area,
