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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    pliddi wrote:
    Hi Terry – in your latter scenario, getting new directors for each company trustee would basically have the same advantages (and disadvantages) of getting someone to go guarantor for you on a loan, correct?

    Just wanted to clarify if the option you outlined was simply for the theory of it, as opposed to presenting an option with advantages.

    Cheers,

    Peter

    Not sure what you mean. Every director of a company taking a loan would need to give a personal guarantee. You could be director of one and then your spouse director of the next one. You may have a friend who is willing and able to take the reigns – but this would be a huge burden to them and a risk for yourself too as the director of the trustee controls the trust. (but the appointor could remove the trustee giving you some control).

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    yes, section 118-145 ITAA 1997

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    PLC wrote:
    Terry, as a hypothetical what if the money was paid back into the PPOR loan (which is 100% investment from what has been advised), and withdrawn at a later date. No mixed loan from what I can see, so should be fully deductible?

    Cheers

    Tom

    My argument would be that the money borrowed and placed into an offset account is no longer borrowings. The interest on this is therefore no deducitble and that portion of the loan would be private in nature. I am being very strict here and the ATO may be more lenient but it is best to be very careful in this area.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    PLC wrote:
    From what I recall, it's the person whose name is on the title who gets all the benefits. So if the wifes name is the only one on title, but the loan is in two names, it won't matter as all income and expenses would be attributed to the wife.

    Cheers

    Tom

    This is generally true, but not always.

    for example A and B own a property.

    B uses money from a LOC which is taken out in the names of A and B.

    B buys a new property in B's name only.

    B can claim 100% of the interest on the money used from the LOC to fund this property (if investment).

    or

    A owns a property and takes a LOC out on this property.

    A's husband B buys a new property and uses this LOC to fund it.

    B can claim 100% of the interest on this borrowed money assuming new property is an investment.

    Here A is essentially onlending the money to B who is using it to invest.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    As i say to most new investor clients when choosing a mortgage broker it is matter of looking at someone who walks the walk and talks the same talk as you do.

    No point in going to a local broker telling him you have $300K equity want to build a portfolio and ask him to structure a loan set up for you when he tells you he has 5% equity in his PPOR and has never purchased an IP.

    I mean would you go to a Dentist telling him you had toothache when he tells you that he has never done an extraction but very keep and read all of the books.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Or a mid-wife who has never given birth!

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    Ok we definitely dont want to go down the mixed loan path… I take it what I need to do then is clearly split that IP loan into one 170k investment portion, and another 100k private portion… then fully pay back the 100k private portion.  When I'm ready I can then take out that 100k as a new investment loan towards the deposit for another IP.

    I just got off the phone to the ATO. I explained my question and was directed to a lady who answered that as long as the funds in the IP loan's offset account is used exclusively for investment purposes such as shares or deposit towards another IP, interest paid on the loan is fully tax deductible… Terry is this perhaps what you meant by the ATO not "strictly" enforcing tax law for these sorts of cases?

    Yes, Strictly speaking I would say it isn't deductible. But as long as you can trace the funds and there is no mixing of borrowed funds with other funds then the ATO may allow it.

    You really need to see a tax advisor and to go through it all as if you get this wrong it will cost you tens of thousands over the next 30 years.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    Happily (in a sea of despair), OSR does allow this.  It is not allowed for the FHOG, but is for the first home owner zero stamp duty concession.

    Top call centre question #1 listed on OSR website:

    Q: "A husband and wife purchase a home to live in as their principal place of residence. The property is valued at $490,000. The husband has not owned residential land previously; however, his wife has owned numerous properties. Can the husband claim the first home concession?"

    A: "Yes. The husband can claim the first home concession, and will need to complete a Form D2.1."

    That sounds promising. Just verify with your solicitor.

    So what you need now is a good tax advisor, a lawyer and a mortgage broker to work out how this can be done. If one says it cannot be done then they are no good and move on to the next one.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Depending on your circumstances the property could be totally CGT free if sold within 6 years of it being rented.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    I know of the existing exemption when adding a spouse to title of main residence as you rightly point out, but this is a separate concession that applies here.

    The QLD govt brought in a zero stamp duty concession for first home owners' purchase of a main residence effective from 21 Sept 2012.

    http://www.osr.qld.gov.au/duties/transfer-duty/exemptions-and-concessions/concessions-for-homes.shtml

    I dont' know QLD laws, but would be surprised if this allows one spouse to buy and get the grant when the other spouse has previously or currently owned property. Why not give the OSR a call.

    If it does then it will be a significant opportunity.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    This is the equity loan I've taken out over the PPOR currently in my name. The loan was at 80% LVR of the PPOR value and was fully directed to purchase the IP (which I'm having the offset dramas with).

    If I transferred the property to my wife's name or go tenants-in-common with her, then that would mean the loan would have to be refinanced. If her name is added to the loan after refinance, doesn't that mean that I can only claim 50% of the loan interest as deductible?

    Since ownership is changing you would have to take out new loans. You could treat the existing loans as a 'refinance' so the amount changes. If there were 2 names on title then you used the money for other investments then nothing changes in terms of deductibility. You can still claim all of the interest.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Def pay down non deductible debt first.

    Consider selling one of the houses, ideally one in your name only, when you are not working and pay down the non deductible debt.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    Tom,

    My understanding is that if my wife who is not working and does not derive an income is on the mortgage, I can only claim 50% of the loan interest as deductible.

    Happy to be corrected if wrong.

    Wrong.

    who used the money and what was the money used for?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
     

    All the lenders I have spoken with have said that if hers is the only name on the title, she must be on the mortgage as well.  Perhaps the solution is for her to buy it from me under some kind of tenants-in-common arrangement where she owns 90% and I own 10%…? Perhaps that way she can provide a security guarantee for the loan which would be 100% in my name only?

     .

    Yes, all owners must be on the mortgage or guarantee the loan. But as Tom says why worry about this? Why do you want the loan in your name? Deductibility to determined by use. If you are going to be using a LOC attached to this property then she would be onlending the money to you.

    If she cannot get a loan because of lack of income then all you have to do is to guarantee the loan or even go in a joint borrowers.

    This thread shows the importance of getting proper advice from qualified people before doing things. Don't take tax advice from a broker or credit advice from a lawyer as they don't know and cannot advise in areas outside of their knowledge.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    paradigmv wrote:
    Thanks Terry.

    The key benefit that we would derive from the PPOR being fully owned by my wife is that when it becomes an IP she will be able to collect about 15k of rent which being under the 20.5k pa effective tax free threshold will mean she pays no tax on the income. So her taking out a loan to buy it off me at the full market value wont really help as she doesn't have an income against which to negatively gear. I was thinking of selling it to her at no consideration. The purchase would have zero stamp duty (exempt for first home owners in QLD – my wife qualifies as per OSR website) and zero CGT (because it is the PPOR).

     .

    This makes sense then. If your wife is not going to be claiming interest etc then you don't need to worry about deductibility.

    But what you have said about stamp duty cannot be correct. I have had a look at the Duties Act QLD and cannot see any relevant exemption except when adding a spouse to title to the main residence, s 151

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/da200193/s151.html

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    paradigmv wrote:

     

    So to untangle myself from this added blunder, would this approach work to restore complete tax-deductibility?:

    * repay the 100k surplus in the offset back into the IP loan (270k) reducing it to 170k, whose interest is fully tax deductible

    * when purchasing another IP in future, organise for a loan split to cover the deposit + sundries (e.g. 70k) for the new IP, which would be clearly for investment purpose this time

    This won't work because you would now have a mixed loan. Each payment into a mixed loan comes off each part of the loan in proportion of the loan amounts.

    So if your current loan is 270,000 with 100,000 of this sitting in an offset:

    100,000 private debt = 100/270 x 100 = 37%

    170,000 investment debt = 63%


    270,0000

    So if you placed 100,000 back into this loan then 63% of this amount must come off the investment portion.

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    paradigmv wrote:
    So what we'd like to do now is transfer the PPOR into my wife's name (who has no income), paying no CGT and no stamp duty (this is QLD & she's never owned a home). The question is, can we do this without adding her name to the mortgage secured against the PPOR, whose original purpose was to buy the other IP mentioned previously?

    The banks I've spoken to so far have said no, but does anyone know a lender who will say yes?

    What you need to do to fix this part of your problem is to sell your property to your wife. Your wife needs to buy it off you for full market value and to borrow to do so. Then later when it is an investment your wife will be able to claim all associated expenses and to negatively gear – which may not help that much if your wife is not working and doesn't have an income. There is also no income tax on incomes less than about $20,500 pa either so she would have to earn more than this to save tax.

    Stamp duty won't be exempt I think because you are transferring from one name to the other name and are doing so at market rates. If it was to remain the main residence and you were adding her name (and keeping yours) then it would be possible – but possibly only if for no consideration.

    CGT would probably be exempt but you would need to discharge the loan and to reapply again as Aussieguy correctly pointed out above.

    So, I suggest you do some figures and see if all the costs and hassle will be worth doing this. Your wife may not qualify for a loan without a job, but you could go on the loan together or guarantee the loan – with no tax effects – to enable finance to be achieved.

    You would have to rejig all your loans so as to maintain less than 80% LVR overall. But this can certainly be done. for example the new one you buy may end up with a lower LVR with the overall LVR being 80%.

    Complex but doable.

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    paradigmv wrote:
      The surplus we put into an offset account against the IP loan for investment use only in future as opportunities arise (e.g. capitalising interest, purchase of shares, deposit for next IP, etc.).

    Don't worry we all make mistakes. What you have done is not a mistake anyway, it is just that it could have been set up to be more effective and efficient. No many people realise these things.

    This is also a mistake – parking money into an offset account.. You have borrowed money and placed into a savings account. This is not a commercial transaction and therefore the interest is no longer deductible. Later when you go and use the funds for investing the interest won't be claimable because the funds that you will be using are no longer borrowed.

    But, luckily the ATO are not too strict on enforcing this. It is still a huge potential problem though. Especially if you have placed other money into the offset account – such as savings, wages etc. There is caselaw to support my arguement too. Domjan v FCT.

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    aussieguy2000 wrote:
    For starters you are saying that you want to transfer a property which in reality is owned by the bank to her, no bank is going to let that happen without discharging the mortgage first. Just like when you sell a car, as long as there is a loan, the banks hold the item as security, that is the difference between a secured and unsecured loan – the item must remain in the name of the borrower, as your wife is not bound by the contract between you and the bank, you signed it not her. You can only sell, dispose of, gift the item after the loan is paid off.

    You say that it is your PPOR? If you still live in it, why not re-mortgaging the property and purchasing another, it is your PPOR after all, I would suggest finding out if there is any time limit on when you could move to a new property after taking out the mortgage or if you would be able to move the day after the loan is settled.

    Finally, I am new to QLD, so I am not 100% sure on the actually rules, but in NSW if your spouse, (wife/husband or de facto – meaning you have live in a relationship for more than 6 months) has owned property before, neither of you are eligible for the stamp duty exemption. (Plus remember there is a minimum period of time you have to live in the property after settlement). Even if you satisfied the stamp duty exemption, you have to live in it, making it your PPOR, meaning you can take out a loan for against the property and use it to purchase another property, which you can then live in later, and (as far as I am aware) leave the loan on the current property as tax deductible when you leave.

    If I am mistaken someone let me know please, as this is how I understand it.

    Aussieguy – hope I don't offend you, but virtually everything you have written is not correct.

    1. The bank doesn't own the house, the legal owner does and the bank just has a mortgage – huge difference.

    2. taking out a new mortgage on this property won't help with the deductions at all. Purpose of borrowings is relevant.

    3. not sure what you mean about time limits but this doesn't apply because of 2.

    4. You are confusing the FHOG with the exemption for transfers between spouses. In NSW adding a spouse on title of the main residence can be stamp duty exempt even if the spouse has owned property before.

    5. There is no minumum time you must live in the property after settlement.

    6. The last part you are confusing yourself!

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    Richard,

    Maybe add something about the land tax as this varies from state to state. In NSW for example there is no tax free threshold for trusts at all – only some relieft if fixed unit trusts.

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    Def do not have personal trustees. There is a recent case, Shahail from memory, where husband and wife were trustees. Husband did a runner overseas taking all the super money. Wife only remaining trustee in Australia. She ended up coping a whopping fine for breach of trustee duties and the fund was non copying and taxed at 46.5%.

    Also consider residency as Richard mentioned. Even though you may be citizens this is not the same for tax, especially if you decide to live overseas at some stage.

    And how is the SMSF going to own the property in India. Can an australian company own land there? Or maybe a nominee company – will this be ok under the funds rules and Australian law? Shares in a trust or units in a company? Would this be permissable? You need specialist advice – which Richard may be able to assist with?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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