Forum Replies Created
- junkyster wrote:Hey guys,
Just spoke to the bank today, they are currently processing the CBD apartment loan. Once approved, I am hoping to pay off the townhouse first.
From here, I could mortgage back the townhouse on an IO loan to start looking for another investment property.
Is this feasible?
Thanks,
JunK
Above you seemed to say that there was no loan on the CBD apartment. Are you now saying you are going to mortgage the apartment, borrow money and pay out the townhouse? If so you would be shuffling money around with no benefit.
I can think of a few strategies which could significantly save you some tax.
One is for you to buy your wife's apartment at full market value. Use the proceeds to pay off your townhouse. Charge the tenants market rent – even if you may have to gift them the money to pay. This way you get rid of non deductible debt, avoid stamp duty, save a heap of tax and are in a good position to invest.
Of course there are various steps involved and you should seek legal advice before implementing this.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
s0805 wrote:Terryw wrote:Not sure about your other comment Terry, that this sort of issues are only faced in early days of investiing…….i think if you are going to avoid cross collateralising then separate facilities has to be setup to fund the next purchase….until one of your property has enough equity so you don't have to dip in to the other one…..is that what you meant….
No, it is possible to do all without crossing at any stage. But in the early days cash is tight and equity is tighter, so clients often try to access equity and take out little bits at a time. After a while growth kicks in and you might take one property up to 80% and by the time you use that LOC then the next property has increased to 80% and so on. So after you increase each LOC you then go back to the first one and repeat. – theory anyway. Usually your income won't growth fast enough to keep things usustanable.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
You could have one big LOC but, this would mean it is secured by each property which is cross collateralising.
These sorts of issues arise in the early days when the investors are trying to get access to equity quickly, but after a while things will slow down as more property is purchased and harvesting equity slows down a bit.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
s0805 wrote:Terry, I want to avoid LOC if possible, i understand that it gives much more flexibility from the top off point of view….but it comes with higher interest rate…….
It will be a small amount and not of any significance. The LOC can be rolled over into a normal IO loan once drawn too.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
s0805 wrote:TheFinanceShop wrote:I would generally go for an standard product with a linked offset and I would do this for each loan account or do it as a redraw as some lenders likeShahin, valuation is on to do list……but i m sure that I'll have to go up to 90% this time……standard product with offset is my preferred method as well…..similar to what I've done for IP1. I'm with ANZ and they will charge me extra for additional offset outside of my package fees….
My concern is that if I setup separate loan for each equity release on my investment journey then i will be end up having plenty of loan accounts and ofcourse multiple offset accounts……note that i've already released equity for my first IP in Loan 1 account from PPOR…..can I top that off rather than creating Loan 2 for the equity release from PPOR this time…..atleast in this case each property will have its own equity release loan account….which i can top up throughout my journey…..thoughts???
ANZ will not deposit the borrowed amount back into the loan so you need a separate account.
I would still suggest a LOC loan and don't worry about having too many, these could be consolidated when more equity develops in the future.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
s0805 wrote:Terryw wrote:LMI wouldn't be deductible in full because part of it would relate to the existing properties. Probably base it on a % of the total amount borrowed.Terry, I am borrowing upto 90% off existing properties (1 PPOR & 1 IP) to fund my second IP….which is for investment purposes. In that case shouldn't LMI on both PPOR and IP1 be tax deductible? or in ATO's eyes PPOR LMI will not be tax deductible as it is PPOR but IP 1 would be? How do ATO sees this arrangement?
thanks
Possibly, best to check with your accountant
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
god_of_money wrote:Hi TerryCan you elaborate more about
"they can earn over $20k pa and not pay tax for income received from a testamentary trust"
I thought children < 18 can only earn up to A$416 without paying tax.
s102AG ITAA36
income from a will or a trust set up on death is excepted trust income and taxed at adult rates. Can also apply for a child maintenance trust and income from insurance proceeds.
If you are divorced and pay to pay $20,000 in child support, you may have to earn $40k pa to pay this, but if you set up a child maintenance trust the trust could pay the children $20,000 and no tax payable. Many restrictive rules however.
Dying makes things easier as you could leave your extensive property portfolio to a discretionary trust set up in your will and the income to go to minor children – also reduces chance your spouses new partner getting at your money.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
LMI wouldn't be deductible in full because part of it would relate to the existing properties. Probably base it on a % of the total amount borrowed.
I would suggest you get a LOC on each property – ideally. If small amounts this may not be practical.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
manolo76 wrote:Hi Terry. Thanks. I will dig a little bit more in depth after your comments.In regard to the land tax… we are in NSW.
By the way what is the current situation with non working children as beneficiaries of a trust
Hi M,
It doesn't really matter where you are, but where the property is located!
Children can earn $416 pa without having to pay tax – from inter vivos trusts. But make sure you have a trust in your will because they can earn over $20k pa and not pay tax for income received from a testamentary trust.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
PTW wrote:Hi thereA little about my situation first. Married, no kids, wife doesn't work, I'm 46yo, we own our own home, car and some shares = +$1m. I earn >$200K.
I've just bought off the plan my first IP within 2k of the cbd for about 500k due completion early 2015. This should rent for 550-600/week.
Doing the math I could pay this out in 5 years, then give it to the wife so she can get the rent, hoping she can claim the stamp duty transfer as a deduction as well. Or I could string this out to ten years payout, save the extra I would have been paying it off at and invest in shares or something, then buy the wife one outright at the 5 year mark. Or I could buy another one then be committed to paying out in 10 years. Also with any of those scenarios would I be better to have my wage offset the loan or invest that separately in my wifes account for tax purposes?
I am absolutely confused as to was is the best strategy.
Cheers Paul
If you gave it to your wife she would be up for stamp duty and you CGT. Why not just buy it in her name from the start? If you think you want to be saving tax, then you may find that having it in her name will result in more tax saved.
Even better why not look at buying it in a discretionary trust. This way you don't need to worry about which name it is in as the income can flow through to whoever is on the lowest taxable income each year.
You could refine the strategy a lot more and considering your situation you could make things work well.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
ChristineNurse wrote:Terry / Richard,With all the experience and learning lessons you both had, have you considered writing a book or better still, coming up with a online education course thingy? We freshies (new investors) can learn from you.
Hi Christine
I am in the process of writing several books.
One on tax
one on trusts
one on the tax aspects of interest
one of asset protection
one on succession
still got a long way to go, but hope to have the tax one done in the next few months.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
M: Based on this, i do not see any point in buying in the name of a company in my situation. Do you agree?
T: There can be some reasons to buy in the company name. One is land tax. But this would depend on where you are buying
M: I have read somewhere that in this scenario if one trust incurred losses from one property…. then this can offset the gain of the other two IP-trusts structure, consequently evening the gains across the investing structure and therefore producing a more effective distribution across the beneficiaries. Is this right?
T: One trust could distribute to another trust, depending on the trust deed and some legal issues. So a trust with a loss could receive a distribution from the trust with the income.
You may also be able to set your business up with a separate trust so profits from the business could be distributed to the trust with the loss.
M: if my IP1 produce positive cash flow, then this money should be move to an offset 100% account.
T: If you are talking about cashflow from the property then this is best put into a 100% offset account attached to the PPOR loan as this interest is not deductible. This is just income so there are no tax consequences. If you are talking about withdrawing equity (ie borrowing) then you should never deposit this money into a savings account.
M: What is involve in the process of re-using the money distributed to the beneficiaries back into further investments?
T: Distributions to beneficiaries means the money belongs to them. They could use that money to pay down non deductible debt or lend it back to the trust or gift it back to the trust. There are various legal and tax consequences involved and things should be considered carefully.
If a distribution hasn't been handed over to the beneficiary then this is called an Unpaid Present Entitlement. The money belongs to the beneficiary and it is treated as a loan by the beneficiary to the trust. There are various legal issues here such as what happens if the beneficiary demands repayment and the trust hasn't got liquid assets to make the repayment? This can often happen on death and can lead to the estate suing the trust (seen if happen with one of my clients).
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Hi Manolo
I think you must have misunderstood your accountant as what you have written above is strange and wrong.
If the company is buying the property in its own right then the tax on the income will be fixed at 30%. The company can pay dividends to the shareholder which is the trust. But trusts cannot retain income (or be taxed at 45%) so the trust must distribute the income to beneficiaries. If you or your husband were to receive distributions you would pay additional tax. There is also no 50% CGT discount for companies so the company would pay at least 7.5% more tax than you would if a trust owned the property or your personally owned it. Also it could be much less.
The asset protection is not so secure. Directors of the company will need to personally guarantee any loan and if the investment fails the director(s) can lose their personal assets. If a tenant sues then you may be protected by the limited liability of the company.
If a company or a trust owns a property then losses can only be offset by that company or trust. Similar if you buy a property in your name, you cannot use the losses to offset your husband's income. However, if you are self employed there is a way you can negatively gear in a company or a trust and that is to distribute from one entity to another – depends on how you are set up.
The property you are in now – is that in VIC? if so you could buy out your spouse for no stamp duty and increase deductions.
your questions are unclear.
1 – if your husband owns the property you cannot claim anything. If a company or a trust owns it, same
2. what do you mean by profit? If you have money you could move that into an offset account. If the offset account is in your hushand's name then there are other implications but you could consider lending him the money or gift him the money to park in his offset account.
My thoughts are that you have probably not structured ideally.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
manolo76 wrote:Hi everyone. Firstly i would like to acknowledge how much i have been able to learn from all your comments in the forum, so thank you.I would like to share with you my case. My partner and I bought a property in 2010, where we are living, in a town south of Sydney with the idea of making it an IP. So we took on a IO Loan with and offset account so we can minimize the interest and have the money available to move to purchase to our home when the time comes around.
We bought this town house at 295.000$. The house is in my partner's name. We performed a cosmetic renovation. The property is currently value 330.000$. The loan is currently at 231.000$.
Considering LVR of 90% we have 66.000$ equity. The rental return of this property is approx. 390-420$ a week. With the current interest rate on the loan of 5.2% (which i am trying to refinance to bring down) it will be a nice positive cash flow property. The offset account has 85.000$. Adding to these factors we just a saw a house where we would like to buy to live given that match our life style and work location.
So we are a little bit unsure about taking the decision to move forward. I should say our combine income is 230.000$ pre tax.
1) If i decide to buy the home for my family should i use just the money in the offset. Would the use of the equity in this property be a poor decision given that can be use for other investment and in this way maintain
it tax deductible.
2) Today the IP property will be positive cash flow, however I am afraid if the interest rate rise to 7% it will become negative. i would like to know what is you opinion in regard with this topic and how would you manage this. I guess that one way to speculate will be the rise in rental income although i am not sure if i can match my rental every time the interest rate goes up.
3) What will be the most tax effective and cost effective Loan structure way to move my equity.
I should also add that we discussed with our accountant our future and they suggested to set up a company and a trust which we have done and have not have the opportunity to use yet.
So the next investment property we will be looking for it will be renovated and rented. Should we consider to use the company rather than the trust in this case in order to claim?
I look forward to you input.
Hi
Here is my take
1. Ideally you should borrow 100% of the new property in case it is ever rented out in the future. To do you you would get the 90% LVR loan and set up a separate split on the existing one for the remainder. Once you have settled on the new PPOR move all of your cash from the other offset to the offset on this one. Have the loan IO and just keep plugging money into the offset.
2. I wouldn't be afraid. If rates are rising that would probably mean the economy is heating up and rents could be rising faster than usual. Rates are probably going to just in 0.25% increases so it will take a long time before they hit 7%. The interest on this will be deductible too so this lessens the pain. And if you are worried you could consider fixing a portion of the loan.
Not sure why your accountant set up a trust before you intend to use it. What sort of trust and did you get advice on the land tax implications?
3. You could set up another split on the existing loan and then borrow to pay for investment related expenses and use this to keep spare cash in the offset.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Being fixed doesn't mean you cannot set up a new loan with the same bank – and Benny's suggestion is good too.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Many ways you could do something like this. some are:
1. approach the owners of the property
2. Find someone to invest with you
3. Find a builder – you arrange a profit split
4. find someone to lend you money
5. you lend someone money and they buy it
6. Use a unit trust to invest.
etc
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Finance should be structured under normal principals. Initially you would want to borrow as much as possible. Ideally 104%. Borrow the costs to strata title too.
Once strata titled sell off the units you want to and then split the loan so there is a portion for each unit. All loans IO and an offset account attached to the one you are living it. You may need advice on how much each portion of the loan will be. Probably won't be equal depending on the valuations of each units – ideally you want to attribute higher loans to the ones that will be investment.
So separate the loans first and then sell. Using the proceeds to pay down your PPOR loan first (or into the offset). If you sell first and then split you will end up with lower tax deductions.
Also factor in income tax and GST on the sale.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Terryw wrote:One of my goals is to be legally able to offer advice on 4 main areas of investing 1 law 2 financial planning 3 finance 4 taxation. I plan to open my own law firm and a separate company for financial planning. Aim is first half of 2013Wow 12 months have passed and it seems like much longer.
I opened my firm, FinLaw Pty Ltd, in March 2013. I never did open my own financial planning firm, but have an in house financial planner sitting in my office and work closely with him. I can also advise on tax and credit matters.
One of my other goals was to lose some weight, but I think I have put some on.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
I don't think it would make a difference. Interest accrues daily but is charged monthly. So if you make a deposit to the loan account the day after interest is taken it will benefit you by reducing the principal until the next payment of interest.
But it won't be an issue with hte offset account.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Do you mean there is one title for the whole block?
If so the owner will not be able to sell this unit separately. They would be to be strata titled.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au