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    mickb67 wrote:
    The situation we are in, is my wife and I have a huge mortgage on our PPOR (500k). We both work full time with myself being the highest wage earner.

    My wife, by inheritance, has 3 properties owned outright. One house (divided into 2 units) & 2 strata Townhouses. We have owned the properties since August 08. Its great having the rent as extra income, however the tax bill every year is killing us !! We also have our first house which is negative geared. And we have a boat which has a loan against one townhouse.

    We are struggling to find an advisor / accountant that we are comfortable with. Thus the reason we are posting this question here.

    We have been told to never sell….however we are thinking that the best way to fix our debt problem is to sell one or more IPs to clear both the boat debt and PPOR debt. We have been told that the other option is setting up some kind of trust to transfer the debt to, thus becoming good debt (tax deductable) rather than Bad debt.

    We have tried to understand how a trust can benefit us and our situation. Firstly we know that being in NSW we lose the current threshold for land tax. We know some basic advantages and disadvantages but would love someone to describe Trusts to us in layman terms and if it is suitable for us. We don't really understand some of the terms. eg: who will be the Trustee, the Appointer, the Settlor. Obviously we will be the beneficiaries.

    So in summary, do we sell IPs to clear the debt, or set up a Trust to sell the IPs to, to clear the debt ??

    Thanks in advance for everyones help.

    Mick

    My fav topic! so gonna be a long post:

    —Trust—
    Swapy has mentioned a few important points so adding on.
    1. Having a trust doesn’t sound like it’s gonna solve your problem as such; i would be looking at a better financial structure to lower your PPOR + gearing the tax benefit a lot better ( ie find a better accountant)

    -> If you transfer your Ip to the trust, you WILL have to pay the GCT + purchase and mortgage stamp duty ( since it’s a Trust/PTY purchase- however it varies slightly state by state), it’s like selling your IP to a 3rd entity.

    -> A standard trust will not receive any of the negative gearing benefit or losses; having said that some trust (depending how your structure it ) can pass the loses to the beneficiaries and still achieve a similar outcome

    -> A trust is only useful in 3 common situations;
    1. Asset protection- if your going into a risky investment/ financial commitment
    2. Your income is in the high tax bracket – trust get’s taxed at 30% straight. + ability to distribute the funds to beneficiaries according to your financials that year ( depending which trust you choose).
    3. Can pass on a trust or add kids to the trust in a tax and financial efficient way.

    If you want to know more about trust – PM/email TerryW from this forum; his a pro when it comes to trust…i personally have learnt a lot from him.

    —Reducing PPOR debt —-

    Short term – not the best option….

    The quickest option is to sell your IP as you probably know…but selling it to your own trust may not be the best way around this; ie you do a standard sell for $X and make say $200k Profit – CGT kicks in and you after tax profit is $130k ( 35% tax ) goes straight into PPOR. VS

    Sell to trust also at an $200k Profit…CGT is the same – so after tax tax profit is $130k ( 35% tax ) – BUT you have to minus cost of 1. Stamp duties around $15k + trust set up cost – $3k, yes in affect these extra funds could be borrowed as an “investment” since it’s soft cost towards the trust…but that’s another investment set up :(

    Long term….

    This involves setting up the right loan structure.
    1. PPOR set up with Offset account
    2. All IP set up as a basic loan on an IO ( interest only – important), with no connecting “accounts”
    3. All rent + all income goes into PPOR offset
    4. All repayments and bills for PPOR and IP also comes out from this PPOR offset.
    5. All tax returns + bonus also goes into PPOR( you get the drift…)
    6. Always do a depreciation report.

    And if you wanted to be a bit more pedantic and aggressive you could add in step 7. ( a bit of self control)
    7. All bills and living expense paid off by a interest free credit card, balance paid off in full before interest is charged ( allowing the extra cash to sit in the offset for 45 days)

    —-Capital gain tax- maximize benefit—

    This relates back to selling one of the IP to reduce the PPOR debt; this part is important i thought it deserves it’s only section :)
    When you sell, CGT is payable…so how can you within the ATO guidelines minimize this tax? it all comes down to right loan structure, timing and creative strategies

    In summary you need to minimize the amount of income receive the year that you sell, not by working less…but by;
    1. Doing an IO in advance for 1 year on your IP; so say you do it this year..when it comes to next financial year you will have a improve cashflow and the IP should be +VE gearing…hence more money going towards the PPOR offset.
    2. Selling any shares or investment that is making or will make a lost – to offset the CGT
    3. Advancing any another investment you might have
    4. Fast forwarding any renovations you intend to do on your IP
    5. If your work is going to give you any bonus it’s best to speak to the boss amount when you want to receive this…you may instead of getting it now 3rd june…wait till 2st July ( next Financial year)
    6. Lastly put off the sale till 1st of july so you got ONE full year to execute the above 5 points…

    Ok that’s it for me- sorry there may be some typos…it’s late 2am :(
    Good luck and any questions feel free to holla.

    Regards
    Michael

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    100% offset.

    Edit- However i should be a bit more clear here, even though it’s sold and advertised as an ” 100% ” offset .. technically speaking it’s slightly different in that i would consider these Portfolio loan to work more like an re-draw ( no question ask re-draw- linked to a standard debt card).

    Yes it’s confusing – i dont know why the banks loves confusing ppl with new products all the time :( great for marketing tho.

    Regards
    Michael

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    There is 2 type of stamp duty- Purchase Stamp duty + Mortgage stamp duty ( yes it’s stupid to have similar names) ..the latter one is only payable to Commercial properties ( Residential property no longer had to pay this part as of 2007 when it was abolished) – a side note it will be fully abolished even for commercial property as of 2012 July.

    SO Yes you pay Purchase stamp duty on the full sale contact amount + you pay Mortgage stamp duty on the “mortgage part”- so yes if you had 100% Cash, you only pay the Purchase stamp duty.

    Cost?- around $26k for Purchase Stamp duty and $6k for Mortgage stamp duty

    If the place is currently vacant- it could get a bit nasty in term of financing.
    ALSO be aware EVEN though you want $500k from the bank, the bank will still consider the 200k vendor finance in their calculation and serviceability.

    Regards
    Michael

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    ANZ one is- they are sub accounts.
    NAB one is the same account – so a true offset.

    Either way, having the LOC there can cause a lot of tax issues; once you start mixing non table debt with taxable one’s, and then it an get more messy with the offset…
    Having the offset is more of a “marketing tool” i reckon.

    LOC is only good if it’s ALL investment and no contamination.

    Regards
    Michael

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    anntoro wrote:
    There is a little difference between offset account and line of credit. The main advantage of line of credit is that if you take a regular loan then interest is not charged. The interest is only paid on money actually withdrawn. 

    Err not so.

    Jamie’s answer explain offset and LOC perfectly.
    Terry and number 8- provides a good point about the tax consequences ( which is really important and could save you thousands!)

    karlm – to answer your question, yes you can have an offset account with a LOC; but NOT with St George bank.
    It’s offered by NAB, ANZ ( sub accounts)…just to name a few.

    Regards
    Michael

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    woodsy1 wrote:
    Hi fellow investors!

    I have finally decided to pluck up the courage and buy my first IP, which is a fairly new commercial property on CBD land in QLD. It has sat on the market for at least 18 months and I am currently negotiating with the RE. My first offer was turned back and now 2 days later, the agent is phoning to "touch base" – which I think is a good sign the vendors are keen to sell??

    The asking price is $800K – Im willing to pay $700K and Im considering to negotiate a deal whereby I would get a mortgage for $500K and set-up a private loan from the vendors for $200K with interest at rate of inflation only (this was an option as advised by the RE)

    Therefore, as my mortgage is for only $500K and the rest is private loan, does this mean that the purchase price of the property becomes $500K and you only pay stamp duty / land tax on this amount??

    Just interested if anyone has any advice on this, or any other other creative strategies for financing a deal?

    Regards
    Russ

    Hi,

    If it’s been on the market for such a long time, it means there is most likely something wrong with the place- and no it doesn’t mean they are keen to sell- it’s more they want to sell and they dont have any another buyer.
    Most common problem with commercial deals
    1. Lease terms
    2. Strata
    3. Council or “building managements” limitations or by laws
    4. Zoning
    5. Business limitations
    6. Building /Business type

    Dont buy just because the “numbers or rental yeild” adds up…the overall pictures needs to make sense.

    Read for a bit more info here- https://www.propertyinvesting.com/forums/getting-technical/finance/4336761

    If you purchase price is well under the market the ATO will ask you to pay Stamp duty on the purchase price OR the market price which ever is higher.
    You only pay mortgage stamp duty ( different to standard stamp duty) on the $500k part…the $200k private loan is Mortgage stamp duty free.

    Lastly i would encourage you to get a pre-approval done with the bank; not one of those 30 min quick pre-approval or 24hr turn around one… those are rubbish as they are “conditional pre-approval” …but instead get a unconditional pre-approval subject to valuation- that way you know IF you can borrow or not and what the limitations are.

    Regards
    Michael

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    OK, What was the reason for the deal to be accepted at 60% LVR only- ; you self employed?
    When you buy an IP at such a low LVR, it limits your leveraging power and ability to grow; i guess that’s why you want to sell as well to lower the PPOR non taxable debt.

    Also it sounds like your 3rd one is cross securitize since it’s 100% LVR, so if you sell one of the IP and it was used as “security” then this could affect the 3rd loan if it hasn’t gone up in value.

    You will definitely need a structure before you decide to sell to save the $$

    Regards
    Michael

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    Sash wrote:
    Paul – Thanks for the insight mate, I briefly thought of that as a concept but thought it would be rare to come by.

    Shape – Cheers for the feedback regarding banks perception on income generated to business towards the loan repayments. After further research it still seems that the biggest hurdle will be a deposit. What is the highest % LVR that banks would allow generally? I understand business' are assessed as higher risk than standard residential property however if one can run a business as an absentee owner, the extra cashflow would be significant in servicing debt to fund more property ventures.

    Does anyone have any experience in absentee run businesses and what niche's work? My 10 year plan would hopefully run along the lines of overseeing 3-4 small business for cashflow and doing property ventures for capital and long term wealth creation. Even though I have a great income from my current role in excess of $120k pa, I believe I can get a better return from my time further down the track when I gain a little more experience than my 22 years of life.

    Any thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.

    Sorry no straight answer here….Because LVR is based on property type ( see my previous post) + The business income + your overall financial…if you have strong serviceability and good history bank are willing to take a higher risk and go for a higher LVR etc.

    I gotten a Shop front in Parramatta Road Glebe approved at 90% LVR ( self insured policy) …another client who bought something similar on the same road was only able to get 75%.

    If your serious about commercial, instead of stabbing in the dark – i suggest you obtain a pre-approval so you know how the bank view YOUR proposal and strength.

    Regards
    Michael

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    Hi,

    Can i ask what sort of property or deal is the 4th one? sounds like a “special” property ( studio, apartment in the CBD) for it to be declined by Suncorp and then accepted at 60%.

    Regards
    Michael

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    morpheusbushy – Love your blog, very useful and straight to the point… Good work

    Regards
    Michael

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    Sash wrote:
    Hi Michael,,

    Thanks for all your helpful information! In summary to your comments, it sounds like I should be ok with applying for finance? If the income can pay for all expenses without any $ coming from my pocket, surely the banks would be cool!!

    What would be the best way to go about a business loan- use my broker? Contact a bank manager? Can you suggest any lenders that would be easier than others?

    Many thanks again!

    Sash

    If the income from rental supports the loan without your income…then yes the bank is MORE then fine….even if you need to fork out a bit from your pocket it’s also fine (of course depending on your overall financials)

    Going to a broker or Bank direct is a personal choose, it depends how confident you are dealing with the bank etc…some commercial brokers do not charge a fee some do ( our firm is free for both commercial and residential).
    Which bank ? not a simple answer ….have to look at your overal financial, credit file + what and where you are buying.

    Regards
    Michael

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    In term of borrowing; target for an 75% LVR, the lower the better…but no higher then 75.

    Regards
    Michael

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    Try local newspaper ( Local to the property of course :) )

    If you do get quotes done, dont organize for 1-2…make them all come within close intervals.
    Bargain a price + time frame and take it from there.

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    Hi,

    This is def NOT worth $39,000.
    It all cosmetics renos no structural renos at all.

    Unit overall – Good conditions, a paint job will solve most of the problems- Choose a light color to enhance the look and space.
    Light fittings –
    Kitchen – good condition, the titles aren’t broken…just need a new stove + new cabinets
    Bedroom- are fine, paint job

    i would:
    1. Get painter to start with the painting and hole patching ( this would improve everything and the place is probably rent-able at this stage really)
    2. At the same time; get the kitchen done
    3. Lay the new carpets
    4. Light fittings.

    But at the end of the day, if your tight with travel and personal problems, there not much you can do, beside egting agent or your self to organize another quotes for a full job.

    Regards
    Michael

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    Last point, the uni lodge is strata titled – but it’s still zoned as board accommodation 2 ( which is the same as student accommodation) However anybody can live there as the agent mentioned.

    If the place your looking at is not the uni lodge, feel free to post the address/building name so we can give you a better answer :)

    Regards
    Michael

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    Hi steve,

    I think i know which property your taking about is it the Uni lodge?? Our firm is the main brokering company for that apartment and if your trying to buy that at a 90% LVR then it would be impossible without a bit of equity from your own IP1? or your parents place etc..

    Either way any apartment under 40 squ meters would need to be under 80% LVR, the smaller it is the less the LVR needs to be.

    About student accommodation:
    1. You cant live there ( uni lodge one is fine, as it’s not bound by the management)
    2. Strata are higher – because there are more things for strata to maintain…ie shares toilets and kitchen
    3. Its hard to sell later on and close to no capital growth

    To be honest, there are much better buy out there, that allows good rental yield + better financial leverage at 95% LVR + potential growth.

    I would only suggest a student accommodation to a investor who has a few another property under their belt and is looking for a +ve one without “replying” on it too much.

    Regards
    Michael

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    20-30 k for a UNIT is massive…it sounds like your either getting ripped off OR over budgeting.

    If you get one company to do everything, it’s normally more expensive because they sell it to you as a “package” and it’s hardier to negotiate. Also they will take longer for sure…i can bet ya half way the work will slow down because most likely they have also accepted another job elsewhere.

    Your best bet in term of cost savings is to contract each job out…get 2-3 quotes for each job that need to be done- make them come to quote on the same day…or spread over 2 days.

    If you want post come pics of the place so we know how bad it really is??

    New Bathroom – if it’s just re-title ( $900 material and labor)
    New kitchen – If it’s just a change of title + new splash back and stove etc as well – $1300 ( if your cupboards inside are old, you may find a new sheet of “wall paper for the inside” solves that problem)
    New paint- $1500 or $400 a day for labor only — Units can be knock off in 1 day, Max 2 ! ( supply your own paint —a lot cheaper)
    New carpets- $2000
    Hot water system- $600- Plumbers normally charges $200 for labor, supply your own system would save you a lot as well ( a lot of places offer free delivery + removal)

    Regards
    Michael

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    homersyd – Welcome to the forum.

    The 1st one doesn’t stack up; I been looking at south Sydney for a while because it’s so close to the CBD…but just look at Rockdale and the new apartments – they have gone down in value because it’s over priced, they expected the rent to be similar to the CBD…but were they so wrong!

    1. Views of Airport isn’t a seller for me…
    2. 4.7% GROSS rental is low…after all expenses are paid with strata – it be around 2.8-3.3% Net return ( depending how much strata is?)
    3. If it’s a unit it should give a MIN return of 4.5% NET … because there wont be much capital growth to rely on,

    Apartment 2 on the another hand, sounds more promising.

    North shore attracts high income earners and working professional = better potential for growth and higher yields.
    Now when you say it’s on a highway…is it DIRECTLY on a highway and is access in and out ok for cars? or is there space to work with for the cars

    Lastly it be beneficial to post up the address ( or PM/email me if you wish); because every deal is different…there are small pockets within each suburb which are a great buy ( ie lower strata? better st) — i could email you a property report on both properties if you wish.

    Regards
    Michael

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    Hence why i point to HSBC (SINGAPORE) , less conditions and restrictions, i guess when you deal with an Asian country; money talks :)

    Regards
    Michael

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