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  • Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    It is very frustrating.  I think that the government does give them too much money.  My stepdaughter asked if there was any way we could help her to buy this car she wants.  I said we were a bit strapped for cash.  Working people like us already fund her lifestyle 100%.  What makes these people think we are willing to give them money, on top of the taxes we already pay, to buy more stuff when they can't even be bothered to try to work, and we have worked hard for the last 18 years to build what we have from scratch, with no handouts (not even FHOG, though I think we got a reduction in stamp duty).  Two months ago she had a baby and got a $5000 baby bonus.  Why didn't she then buy a car?  Now she  wants us to "help her out".  No way.  And there was even a bit of emotional blackmail about how if we didn't, she'd go to a dodgy finance company that lends to welfare recipients at 40% interest.  Too bad.  She can go her hardest. 

    I was very polite and said that we were a little strapped for cash at the moment and that all I could help her with was some advice and a plan about how to save a deposit (she doesn't even have a deposit), and apply for a small loan through a more reputable finance provider that won't charge her 40%.  No, can't save.  Can't wait.  Been offered a car for $3000, but if she's going to borrow money she'll buy the nice $7K one in the car yard….   Arghhh.  And we, the tax payer will pay every cent while she drives the car the tax payer bought her, to the gym the tax payer funds, and drops her daughter off at daycare for the morning (all paid by us idiots) 4 TIMES A WEEK, and then goes shopping in Supre (probably) and Target, Meanwhile smoking like a chimney…  and hanging around with a group of friends who live on the same planet as her, and they are all happy as bleeding larry, with their comfy lives. 

    I wish I could show her a good reason to work, but I'm stuffed if I know.  With life this good, and the only option for a job for her being something very very basic, bottom rung on the ladder sort of stuff, how would it improve her life?  This is how she was brought up, she is emulating the parents she lived with exactly. Even down to throwing the alcholic partner out until he gets some help (I guess that's good).  She doesn't know anything else.  She does know that we have money, and thinks nothing of asking us for a hand out…  But I think we're just going to say 'no'.  Unless she got a job and saved up some money, then maybe I'd be ok about contributing.  Sorry very frustrated.  It's not all her fault.  She's just a normal human being, working the system she has been brought up in. 

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    I may be missing something here.

    How do you avoid CC when you are using equity in property A to purchase property B and you don't actually have a cash deposit?  Maybe I CC just the two properties, and then when property C comes along, I again CC property C and A.  At some point I could have the CC between A and B removed when I have enough equity in B?

    Cheers
    S

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    Well, well done Lizzie.  It is nice to see someone your age doing all the right things.  You were obviously brought up with some good financial principlies.  If you want to blame someone, blame the government for making welfare so lucrative.  We do need a welfare system, as some people genuinely need help, despite their best efforts.  But the idea that someone who has never worked in their life can have such a lifestyle on welfare is ridiculous. 
    S

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    But hbbehrendorff puts forward a strategy that is worth thinking about at some stage.  For us now, 100% equity in our PPOR, owing about $80K on an IP worth about $165K.  Looking to invest again.  We can jump in and debt up.  Or, we can sell a large portion of our herd of cattle (say $50K), to come close to paying out the other loan, possibly sink business profits into the same loan to reduce it, and reinvest once that house is paid off.  We will pay alot less interest.  It may delay our investment timeline by a year.  That mightn't be a bad thing anyway.  When we DO reinvest, we will have 100% equity in both our home and first IP, and there should be plenty of income to quickly pay off the loan, reducing the interest bill yet again.  I'd love to do some maths to compare the two different snowballing strategies and see which one delivers the outcome I most desire.  Of course, I can't save up front to buy a house but the idea that lots of debt is not necessarily the way to go. Paying off debt quickly and minimising the interest bill, allowing profit to compound rather than interest certainly deserves some exploration, particularly in a market where capital growth is likely to be reserved for some time. 

    Plus, good chance, if I had an IO loan and offset account, I'd end up buying a nice boat.  Or a nice horse.  Or something nice.  There is something to be said for not being able to get that money.

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    Yes, my Dad has an executive recruitment business, I'll have to let him know that next time he is looking for someone, he should browse the eager souls upon Utube.  He might find NAB's or someones new property management team there.

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    This guy is a real expert – check out the list of his other videos.  Everything from Early Childhood, Diet, Health Care, Economics, even the TRUTH. He must be a real genius, huh?  Glad I never wasted any money on a how to get rich seminar – it's all there for free. 

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    Horses for courses, aaabbbccc. Depends upon what you want to achieve.  If you're planning on living in the property for a few years,  I'd proabably go for the big block, so long as it is in a position to have good capital growth.  Why?  because as your PPOR, there are exemptions from capital gains tax which will apply to your big block.  Not sure how this goes when you actually develop it and rent it out, if you do.  There must be a line there, but I'm sure you'd at least get your occupancy period cap gains free.  Have it valued before you rent it out.  Why else?  Because I like freehold.  I just have soft spot for actually owning the land.  It just makes more sense to me, though this is an ongoing argument between various parties who have different points of view.  I like land.  To me, the unit thing might make a good investment because of the higher cash flow, but as an owner occupier, there aint gonna be no cash flow for a few years by the sound of it.  The best period of depreciation on your unit will be wasted as your PPOR.  Bang go your best tax deductions, as you pay off the toughest part of the loan and live in the property.  At least with the block, there is still good tax lurks, and a great opportunity to add value tax free while you live there.   Not much value to be added to a new unit.

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    Just tell him.  He'll probably try to talk you around, that's his job.  Sometimes brokers are good to have onside, even you think you may have found a better product.  A good broker can be like any other good professional – very very handy.  But of course, they're not all good, and some are a complete waste of time. 

    You'll get better advise than what I can give you about wether you can get out, but I would have thought it wouldn't be a problem, though you may be up for application and possibly valuation fees.  Maybe.  In my experience, your two part process is correct. 

    Your property contract should always be subject to finance approved by a financier of your choice(for private treaty sales).  I think QLD contracts are automatically like this, but we always put it in anyway.  There is no need to rush your finance application when you don't even have a property contract in place. (Unless you were going to purchase at auction – for which you DO need preapproval).  Don't panic.  She'll be right.  Be prepared to wear a cost of a few hundred dollars if it turns out that you did get it wrong – those are real small bikkies when it comes to RE mistakes. 
    good luck

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    Don't worry, I'm a w*nker too. 
    2008 Nissan STX dual cab utility with canopy, tinted windows, 4WD and chrome bullbar etc.  Looks much like the cars the FBI drive in the movies.   It is 500km to k-mart, and 350km to the nearest McDonalds, so we need a large and reliable car, so when we hit a roo, the roo comes off second best.  Depreciating at a fair rate.  I don't care either.  I want airconditioning, reliability and the ability to crash into things without getting hurt.  Plus it has to fit 3 kids and tow either a horse float, a trailer full of cattle, or a boat down a dirt road. 

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    OK.  I love your posts.  So much of it I absolutely agree.  So often I get the impression that your ideal of the economy is the true free economy, with no government intervention.  Hence me calling your opinions right wing.  That's what I thought right wing meant.  I would have described my own feelings as moderately right wing.  Some of what you say here I don't quite understand and would like to question:

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    Now it is historical fact that the civilizations with the most limited forms of government and reduced bureaucracy creating the freest people are the nations that prosper the most.  Whereby the nations who follow the path of centralized planning,  big government, mass bureaucracy, tyranny and webs of regulation suffer from economic and productive cancer and eventually collapse,  I might also add that this usually precedes a time of anarchy revolt.

    Can you share with us which nations you are talking about?  Is it your view that the current most prosperous nations simply haven't come to this point yet?  Do you not leave room for the idea that there is a healthy level of government involvement?  Would you rather have no government?

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    Subconsciously people forget that government is not free,  Government makes NO profits and there productivity is Nothing,  Actually its less then nothing, there productivity is Negative,  If government was on a balance sheet it would show up on the liability side,  The bigger they are the more that is finally removed from our country's total output and productivity.

    I've seen our local council's balance sheet.  This sort of thing is easily available.  They list their road network as an asset.  Tricky one.  Future economic benefits of the road network? – Definetley, but not for the Council, for everyone else and their businesses.  Control? To some extent.  They get to decide where it goes (sort of), and wether they should fix it.  Was the Council's considerable effort to build these roads commensurate with zero productivity?  Would you rather that they hadn't (if you lived here, and had a business here).  These roads service cattle stations which service largely the export market, and are the way the cattle get to market, and how the businesses running essentials get to the cattle station.

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    Not only does it cost us the initial expense of paying for our burdens (Gov) but we must also factor in the kinetic loss of wealth through transfer of money,  for example:  If the government collects $100 through taxes it no longer has $100 to reinstate back into the economy again,  It may only have $60 from those initial taxes to spend back again through the effect of erosion they cause,  not to mention the multiplier that is added if that money is borrowed because not only everything else takes affect but now we (tax payer) has the added loss of interest on top of that !  So what am I trying to say ? The government is the biggest leech on the planet and now we are in economic dire circumstances and there solution is to fatten the leech !

    I don't really understand this.  Is this because it costs them say $40 to collect and distribute the $100 leaving them only $60 to spend, or less because the balance is eroded through inflation caused by their overspending?

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    Rudd lies to us all and tells us that capitalism has had it's chance and failed,  And now it is up to socialism and big government to bail the free market out.  Lies,  All of it.  We have never had a free market to begin with,  The best we have had is a partial free market.

      Did Kruddy really say that?  That's a pretty scary thing.  Capitalism didn't fail.  Like you have said, the creation of easy money allowed the thing to fail.  Not capitalism.  I agree.  We never had a free market, and they interfere way too much.  They should be a bit like a doctor and try to weigh up the pros and cons of interfereing with not interfering, and allow a stauch risks/ benefits analysis to lead them a bit.  Interfering in the economy is a bit like taking a drug.  It's going to have a side effect.  You need to decide wether it's worth it.  Often its not.

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    If our economy was truly free market then we would have sound monetary policy,  But we don't,  We use the federal reserve banking system and our currency is Fiat,  Meaning there is no constraints on the proportion of the money supply,  government can print as much as they like and tax us through inflation and banks can lend 10x more money then what even exists.

    Our suffering economy was caused by centralized,  Monopoly like control over interest rates,  Wealth and prosperity was short lived through the creation of easy money that did not even exist in the first place,  When you get your $400,000 110% loan from the bank,  Do you think that money comes from there coffers ? Well it doesn't,  Its a computer entry,  Increased wealth can only be achieved through the formula of subtracting what you consume from that you produce,  If you have a surplus production then that is the increase to your wealth,  Currently we are playing the game the opposite way around and wonder why we are loosing.

    Economists tell us that our now gone so called prosperity was caused by the resources boom,  But this only played a small role,  It was the easy false money through bad monetary policy that caused the biggest property bubble the world has seen,  But the 20%+ gains year after year was false and traded for by inflation that should never have happened,  And now the reaper is coming to get his end of the deal.

    Agreed agreed agreed.

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    I also need to very quickly address the few comments made for stimulus,  Money borrowed in the private sector is totally different to money borrowed by government,  The difference is that in the private sector the borrower takes the risks of failure and therefore will be sold up to repay his debts shall something go wrong.

    Whereby the government does not take this risk and therefore should not be allowed this privilege.  Not only that but if you took note to my previous passages you will understand how governments are negative productive entities and therefore cannot INCREASE there profits because they make none,  Also they cannot increase productivity,  Its impossible,  You can't do things the opposite way around and except the results,  Even IF the very little money spent on useful infrastructure increases some private sector productivity some way, The fruits of that where already gone before it happened.

    Sure, I'll accept that government borrowing is different from private borrowing, due to the lack of responsibility taken for failure.  I think the same thing happens with large corporations.  Too much distance between responsibility and power.  I don't agree that you can't increase productivity.  Government research into fertility genetics in the beef industry HAS increased productivity, as farmers have used the knowledge to select for more productive traits in their cattle.  Again, the building of roads and railways allows trading or physical produce to occur, within the country and overseas.  Productivity would be less if the farmer didn't have roads to get his cattle to the port.  Why?  because why would Australia's beef industry bother producing any beef if they couldn't sell it?  Perhaps the infrastucture doesn't increase PRODUCTIVITY so much as it enables TRADE.  Pretty important too, if you want a healthy trade balance.

    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    Our forefathers knew the disasters that come from what we have done,  How many people know that back in the 1800's fighting the central banks to stop them taking over was mainstream news in the media ?

    How many people know that fiat money was outlawed in Europe hundreds of years ago by kings and anyone caught trying to run ponzi scheme's where charged with usery ?

    I think I will end this rant now,  It has been rather long and I think is best to finish it before it becomes to inarticulate to comprehend :)   I hope I got some of my EXTREMIST RIGHT WING,  CAPITALIST points across

    Those are interesting facts.  I didn't know them.  Europe hundreds of years ago was not my idea of a perfect place to be, either though.  And I guess that is my point.  It's not just about the economy.  It's about life.  And a healthy economy is one of the best things to support good quality life for everyone in the long term.  But government will always have it's role in protecting the weakest, bringing the most ruthless to justice, and providing the infrastructure that allows physical trade to occur across the world.  Somewhere, there is a balance.  And of course, at the moment, Kruddy is not my idea of the right balance.  But I liked Howard, or alot of him, anyway.  No ones perfect though.

    I'm sure you're in no danger of disintegrating into rant.  You're very capable of handling my conversation.
    S

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    There is some knowledgeable comment on this subject on the thread Golden Rules for Property Investment on the Help Needed forum.

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    hbbehrendorff wrote:

    How does running out and spending money you don't have going to put you in better economic shape ?

    I believe that this is something investors do all the time.  Pretty sure I borrowed money when I bought my last IP.  And, yep, that was cause I didn't have enought to buy it on my own.  Pretty sure also, that when we built our hay shed a couple of years ago, we borrowed money for it.  The hay shed has since added over 100K to our turnover and 20K to our profit per year.  The shed cost $20K.  So I guess borrowing that money put us in better shape.

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    Well, I come from the country, where a large amount of our exports come from, mining, or primary production.  Degraded roads and railways,and insufficient ports cost our industries is terms of extra operating costs, and lost trading opportunity.  I see it actually happening.  In real life, in our own business, not just on the news.  This is the only area I have any first hand knowledge of, though.  Degraded highways cause additional costs in the transport industries, and overwhelmed rail freight corridors force additional freight onto less efficient, more expensive road transport.

    We require adequate law and order, on both a criminal level, a civil level and a corporate level in order to allow investment to flourish, and people to enjoy life. 

    I think that the economy does require certain infrastructure in order to function efficiently.

    I don't equate building hospitals, and providing medical care with frivolous or unnecessary expenditure.  And I think that providing educational opportunity is the cornerstone of the economy's future productivity. 

    While I definetely believe in the principals of capitalism, I also believe that allowing the markets to opperate in a pure way can be a little bit ruthless, and has a high toll on the people at the bottom of the system.  I think there is way too much welfare, and that these cash handouts are stupid, but I do believe that SOME welfare is a good thing.  I believe that disabled and elderely and sick people SHOULD be looked after by society.  There is a BALANCE to be achieved, between allowing the markets to operate freely, without interferance, and protecting the weakest members of society.  I don't pretend to know what the correct balance is, I just believe that part of what makes us human is the way we care for and empathise with others. 

    For alot of reasons, I beleive that it is necessary for governments to spend money.  I certainly  beleive that well spent government money has the potential to strenghten the economy by providing and improving transport, law and order and education.  I also beleive that it is much more desireable for us as a species to support those who need support (to a certain level), as well as provide incentive  in the form of personal success and wealth, to those who perform well.  Labor governments tend to get a bit big on the welfare and handouts for me, and I firmly beleive that the previous government had a better balance, though of course, I didn't agree with everything that they did.

    Hbbehrendorff, your extreme right wing views have always interested me, and you certainly sound like you know alot about how the economy operates.  I have a high regard for your opinion, and I wish that pure capitalism would bring us the world we want.  But I don't think it would.  Too many people would suffer.  It would be survival of the fitest in the most animal way.  And that's not the sort of world that  I want to live in.

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    I loved the "temporary deficit" line.  Had to agree though, it will be temporary, as temporary as our labour government is going to be (and then a little more – It'll take some fixing).

    Of course he's got it wrong.  He has to, he's labor, he's wrong by default.

    Perhaps I'm just bitter because, being self employed, I won't get my handouts until after I lodge this years tax return.  Hand outs are stupid.  If they really have to spend money, they should do so improving infrastructure – particularly that which  makes the country globally competitive and economically strong. 

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    Is the amount of equity required for I/O any different from that for P/I?
    I'd like to ensure that we build equity at the fastest possible rate.  I always thought that meant paying off the loan.  How can you strucutre your I/O loan with offset account so that you make sure you still build equity as quickly?  Would you periodically transfer lump sums out of the offset into the loan? and try to keep up with a PI loan schedule, over the years?  Do you structure a seperate loan and a seperate offset account for each property? 
    cheers
    S

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    So you have to go to the expense of carrying out your due diligence before the auction, on only the possibility that you might buy.  I'm surprised that this is such a popular option, having learnt that.  I guess I won't be just turning up at auctions on the hope that the place might go cheap.

    Thanks for your contributions
    S

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    Somehow, sitting in front of the laptop, looking at my 15" screen, is not a relaxing or enjoyable as sitting on the verandah, with a good coffee, flicking through the paper.

    Anyway, disaster is over.  The papers arrived today. I'm half way through the property section, and full of pancakes and coffee.  Ahhh Sunday.

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    You know, there is still alot of jobs in the bush.  Don't know what your skills are, but for anyone looking for work, who is active enough to be useful on a cattle station, it's a great option.  Rent out your current PPOR, go bush and take a job on a minimum wage with accomodation and food included.  You are several hours from the shops, so you can't spend any money.  You will probably work 7 days a week so you can't spend any money.  You will have an adventure, and save some money.  I highly recommend it for anyone with school leaving age kids who feel a little lost, to go and have an adventure in the good clean outdoors, get some character building and save some money.  I loved it and met my husband.

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    Well, thanks for sharing, Peter.  I didn't know about that.  Very handy.
    S

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    Well, Good luck, Tony. Of course I'll help if I can, but unless you are looking at an area I know a bit about, I'm not sure how useful I could be.  I live 'way out bush', but every little town is different.  Greater availability of tradespeople may lead to slower growth in remote towns than what they have experienced in the recent past. 

    My theory is that in order to out perform a market, you need to either be better informed, or luckier than the other players.  I'm not generally all that lucky  (Golden casket has been a poor performing investment for me), so I reckon I have to generate enough knowledge about my market in order to be better informed than the others.

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