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    atevans wrote:
    Does anyone have any constructive comments they would like to make.  I'm a bit sick of reading Scamps 'doom and gloom' comments.

    The house was my PPOR…it was not purchased as an investment property.  It is currently tenanted while we decide what to do with it.

    You said yourself "I currently have an IP in Yamanto". You also wanted some good advice which I gave you : Sell your house now. What do you want these people to tell you ? You want someone to give you a golden tip to instantly turns your money-slurping, negatively geared PPOR ( or IP whatever ) into a gold mine ?
    There is no such way. Hence you didn't get any feedback. There's no 'easy money' anymore.

    Just put me on ignore if you don't like my comments. Ignore the whole problem if you like, stop paying your mortgage, ignore bank notices, ignore the sheriff when he comes around, ignore the news.

    it's what everyone on this forum seems to do. Ignore everything , and hope it goes away.
    Problems don't go away by sticking your head into the sand my friend. Take action now, sell the house, take the loss ( or profit whatever ) if you are losing money. If you are making money, keep it. It's as simple as 1+1=2 really.

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    But what noone seems to understand is the reason why real estate doubles every 10 years ( the last 60 years ).
    Inflation ( and houseprices doubling every 10 years are a form of inflation ) only became a problem when debt levels started to get out of control. The western countries now have so much debt ( 9 trillion for the US , and ticking ) that they cannot possibly pay back the debts at any time in the future. It's not their intention to pay back that debt at all, the common trick to keep up our way of life ( lifestyle ) is by making more and more debt, ever growing, without limits. A common mistake made by the common man nowadays is to think that their wealth comes at no cost. This is not true. The western ( west has nothing to do with location, it's just a term to say "rich" which in turn is a way to say "indebted") countries became rich at the expense of debt to other countries like China, Saudi Arabia and the likes. Some day , these debts have to be paid back.

    Now , something similar occurred with mortgages. In the 1970's , a mortgage of 2 or 3 times your yearly wages was considered normal. It was a lot of money. Then , somewhere around the 1980's, banks were lending more money to people, instead of people thinking "what can I safely afford to pay back each month" , it was now the banks who told the people what they could borrow. It started by shifting the 10 year mortgages to 15 years, then 20 years. If you can pay back 25.000 dollars in 10 years, who says you cannot pay back 50.000 dollars in 20 years, right ? So banks changed the standard mortgage times from 10 years to 20 years, thereby doubling the amount of money that people can borrow and spend on housing. People didn't think anymore in terms of what they could afford, but what they wanted. This was a major change in how people looked at real estate. Instead of a small 3 bedroom house, they now bought massive open plan houses with 4 , sometimes even 5 bedrooms. They had the money to do so. Then, banks thought, hey.. we're earning a lot of money here on these 20 year mortgages, what about we offer them 25 year, or even 30 year mortgages, and then 40 year mortgages ? And so , the amount that people borrowed double up again. At this time, they seemed to have reached a limit. You can't expect someone to pay off more than 40 years of their lives paying off houses , could you ? Since people's wages would only go as far at 40 years. ( from age 25 to age 65 on average )

    But then the banks came up with the term 'household income'. Meaning that in a family of 4, you have 2 adults, and thus 2 incomes, basically DOUBLING the income, and thus they had a means to increase mortgages again, up to a massive 500.000$ AUD dollars , sometimes even a MILLION dollars , to be paid back over the next 40 years.

    And so , credit was available to anyone. Because of this cheap credit ( 6% interest rates , compared to 18% just a few years earlier ) it meant people could borrow even more. And so the builders created ever bigger buildings, 6 bedrooms / 4 bathrooms / pool / 4double garages etc, because people had money to buy. The cheaper houses went up in price because developers would buy them up , bulldozer them and put up McMansions on there.

    So why should houseprices not go up further you say ?
    The answer is simple : We have now reached a social limit on the amount of money 'households' can borrow.

    We have maximized the incomes ( two per household ). We have maximized the amount of hours that people want to work ( 50-60 hours per week on average, counting traffic hours etc ). We have maximized the repayment period ( 40 years ).

    So we have people sitting with :
    two incomes at 60.000 p.a.
    40 years mortgage repayments
    both working 60 hours

    Unless we prohibit people from having kids and thus be able to keep this going, we're up for trouble. As now the double incomers want kids, or they get unemployed because of the incoming recession. Their HUGE mortgages are only sustainable if they BOTH work, and both work 60 hours or more, and have no kids.

    This is the simple reason that we have now peaked the house prices , until inflation catches up with the houseprices. So we'll either see :
    – Huge inflation catching up with houseprices. Wages will have to double in order to keep up with these house prices
    – Huge houseprice deflation in order to get back to normal wage proportions.

    Now, remember the huge country wide debts I was talking about in the first part of this post ?
    Well , those, together with the individual debt levels, have reached 'breaking point'. Banks will not have the physical money available to service it all. So the governments ( USA ) are printing loads of money ( and by doing this, they are stealing YOUR future's money ). This also explains the high oil prices we see today.

    Saudi arabia ( and other OPEC countries ) are getting dollars for their oil. The dollar is nothing more than some paper with prints on it 'saying' it's 'worth' something. Now, if 1 country controls the printing of dollars, they can 'print' free oil , right ? Wrong. Saudi Arabia does not trust the dollar as being worth what USA says it's worth anymore, hence the high oil prices.

    It is perfectly logical from a Saudi point of view : They give away oil and get back freshly printed paper in return. Those dollars are only worth whatever someone else will give for them. If europe says they don't want the dollars, they can't use them for anything , maybe toilet paper. Hence, they want MORE of the dollars in order to make up for any future devaluation of the dollar as a result of the frenzied USA dollar-printing that has been going on for the last years. This is what inflation really is.

    Now, we can even compare that to house values. A house is only worth what any fool will give you for it. If Michael Jackson decides to buy your house for 1 million dollars, does this mean it's 'worth' 1 million dollars ?
    It sure doesn't. It's worth whatever Michael Jackson can sell his house for. We're in a same kind of situation now.
    When people have a lot of money, they tend to spend more money.

    Now , with so many houses up there, and not a lot of people that want to buy them , you would expect people wanting 'more houses' for their money ( "more oil for the dollar" ) or , same house for less money.

    When you remove the existing buyers ( people who own a house and who need to sell it in order to buy another house ) from the market ( and with everyone being locked in at 40 year mortgages that's now happening ) and the new buyers too because of restricted credit on top of overpriced houses, house prices will have to come down for the new buyers to get in the market. By pulling houseprices down, the existing buyers will lose money and thus the only real buyers left are the FHB's. These FHB's are outpriced by the homeowners. This friction has to give somewhere, and it will result in houseprices dropping.

    On top of all this, Australia has a unique problem : Negatively geared property investors ( the likes of those on this forum ). When houseprices drop, the banks will foreclose the house. ( read the small print in your contract that says that if the amount of money due is higher than the valuation of your house you HAVE to pay the bank the difference back ). So, we get foreclosures of the investors. Those investors usually have 2-3 ( sometimes 20 ) properties that are all interlocked with equity. ( ie : they have bought a second home using equity on the first home, and a third home with equity on the second and first home, and a 4th home with equity of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st home etc ). So if the 1st home goes, the whole chain goes. This means we'll see a lot of properties on foreclosure auctions soon. Whole chains of properties.

    This is reality, it's not something I make up. Do the maths, and you will see that I am speaking the truth.

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    Yes. This is a bad time. Read http://www.news.com.au
    Especially the property section, and the money section.
    US / UK / NZ / Spain are in recession already, Australia is well on their way of getting in trouble too.
    Australia's house prices are most unaffordable / overpriced / wage to price is way out of historical trends.

    A 'correction' is in place in all these countries, and Australia will top the 'correction'  ( read : crash )

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    atevans wrote:
    Just because the mortgage is $305000 doesn't mean the house cost $305000 to build.  The house including landscaping etc cost around $330000, and then if you consider two years woth of interest….well $320000 would be a loss in my opinion.

    Welcome to the housing crash, caused by negative gearing ( a fancy word that really means "investing with a loss"). You invested with a loss, what did you expect really ?
    All I can say is that house prices are going downwards, and they won't stop anywhere before 2010. It's going to get worse as inflation catches up, oil is prognosed at 250$ per barrel, unemployment is set to rise, interestrates are set to go up by 0.5% this year ( and more next year ).

    You decide.

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    wow… I am so glad that I have a considerate girlfriend that discusses *THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION IN OUR FINANCIAL LIFE* with me. And that's my girlfriend : If she messes up, I'm not financially liable for her debts. But this is your husband ! I'm amazed that you were at all ABLE to make an offer without consent of your husband. I think it might even be illegal ( it *SURE* is ILLEGAL in europe ! ) because you are using assets from someone else ( 50% of your assets are not yours in marriage, remember that ). If you get into financial trouble, your husband will be too, without him having had anything to say about it.

    And you did it despite the fact that he did say that he did not like the idea and it worried him, you still undermined him and put him into a financial position he did not want to be in !
    You should be ashamed of your behaviour. Even if it turns out to be a good investment, NEVER undermine your husband.

    Goodness, you are an inconsiderate wife.

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    Well the easy answer is : If it was easy to subdivide, why wouldn't the current land owner subdivide it and then sell it ? From that perspective, you need to do research. Every council has different rules and legistlation on subdivision, so best thing to do is to visit the council and ask them about what the possibilities are for that piece of land. Also ask yourself if it would really make the land worth more, or less.
    2 small pieces isn't always better than 1 big piece :)

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    What loss are you taking if you sell for 320.000 ?
    Looks like you would have WON 15.000 dollars ?
    Is it just me ? Equity is NOT real .. it's mythical , fairy value, it doesn't exist until you SELL.

    Sell now, for 320.000

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    Quote:
    What do you think?

    I think you're trying to sell ice creams in the winter…..
    Go back to your previous job before unemployment rises and you find yourself without a job.

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    I don't say the end is nigh.. I just say that property will devaluate. It's already happening, hard to ignore something that already happens. Just drive through the streets, see how much is for sale. Whole villages are for sale, yet noone buys. Do you think that that is a good sign, or a bad sign?

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    Reminds me of RE agents telling everyone "Rent incomes up to 800$ per week!"
    Can you complain at the Dept of Fair Trading when you only get 200$ ? I mean, they were right, 200$ is up to 800$ :D

    What about you asking 800.000 for a house , when it's worth only 240.000 ?
    Can I sue you for asking an unrealistic price ?

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    Quote:
    This investment has it all for the astute investor
    Great depreciation!

    Haha.. he warns you already there "Great DEPRECIATION!" I think I found the first honest RE agent out there :D
    Anyway, do you know any student that can afford 240$ per week ?
    Count on 130$ per week , that's 520 per month, which is a lot to pay for a student already.
    520 per month = 6240 per year rental incomes.
    You PAY : 260000*9.5/100 = 24700 per year
    You LOSE : 18460 per year if you buy this appartment.
    That doesn't include the losses from the promised DEPRECIATION! as advertised in the advert ofcourse.

    It's a bad deal. Plus it's a student flat, expect them to trash the place.

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    Skip101 wrote:
    1 million dollar properties selling for $500,000? I think you may be losing some credibility here.

    I never had any credibility, nor do I want credibility. This actually was my first post ever, so I don't expect anyone to trust what I write. It's my own personal opinion that houses that sold for 1.000.000 in the highest time in the bubble, will sell for 500.000 in the downside of the bubble. People will have lost 500.000 dollars.

    Yes, I believe that, and it is already happening in US. Ireland and UK are well on their ways, followed closely by New Zealand and Australia.  Who cares about credibility when the truth is already out there , plain to see for anyone but the blind people on investment forums ? The whole idea of my post is to warn people from paying 1 million, when 2-3 years later they can get the same property for 500.000.

    And I think that's a pretty good investment strategy : earn 500.000 dollars in 2-3 years ?
    Sounds much healthier to me than the risky investments suggested on here. And on top of that, while you wait you EARN money on your current money, and take absolutely NO RISKS whatsoever, except the risk of missing out on something that you didn't have in the first place. You will never lose more than you invested, which is totally different with if you invest now.. you will most certainly lose more than you get back.

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    Skip101 wrote:
    Too much negativity and not much common sense/fact in a lot of this thread, personal opinions, often from people who have no idea of the Australian market, in some cases not even residing in the country, hence no first hand knowledge.

    ItalianDragon wrote:
    The most annoyning thing is that REALESTATE agents are the number 1 people who inflate prices and they keep trying to pump and pump despite the market is collpasing.

    The market (Buyers) determine the actual sale price, not the real estate agent.

    Quote:

    I thing realestate agents should NOT be paid in % but  on a fixed income.

    If you were selling, you would think differently, you would want the agent striving to maximise the sale price on your behalf, the % commission is an incentive.

    How long do you think it will take for Real Estate agents to find out they can earn more money by driving prices DOWN than up ? The updriving has worked for a while. It was a perfect time for them. Now, that has come to a halt, RE agents aren't selling houses anymore , therefor not getting commisions, therefor not getting any MONEY. Soon, believe me, they will drive prices down just to drive sales up.

    Why would a RE agent try to sell 10 estates at 1 million each ( not selling ) when he can sell them for 500.000 and earn 10*500.000*<insert commission here, let's assume 1.5%> = 75.000 $
    instead of 10*0*<doesn't matter> = 0 $

    If you were a RE agent, what would you do ? .. aaah ok , you'd sell them for 500.000 each ? Me too.

    Now, as far as the rents going up thing :
    When people can't sell their homes, what would you do ? … oooh ok , you'd rent it out in order to make a few bucks while you try and sell it ? What do you think this will do to the rents ? It will drive them down.
    The MASSIVE influx of rental homes that will soon flood the rental market will drive down rentals beyond anyone's belief. That will get more investors ( who were doing ok before renting out ) in problems since they won't find any tenants.

    Put off your rose-colored glasses please.

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    Well said Italian dragon.

    Very simply put : Why would you invest into a house that costs more to 'hold' than you get back from it ?
    The only reason would be 'because house prices go up'. Well, bad news for you : they won't go up in the next 2 years at LEAST.

    Now what happens if you buy a house and can't pay off the mortgages due to negative gearing ?
    You die. Financially.

    Is it worth dying financially just because you are greedy and have a gambling addiction ?
    No. Just look at the FACTS , watch the NEWS and learn from what is happening all around you.
    Stop listening to Spruikers who want to lend you more more more so they get rich rich rich at your expense.
    Stop borrowing what you can't afford. Drive houseprices down to normal levels so everyone else can live their lives normally, without having a huge debt that can only be maintained in PERFECT economic times.

    Think about it : What do you think Australia will do when the world economy worsens ? Do you think the debt will just be 'washed away' by inflation ? No.. what will happen is interest rate will go up to 18%, you will have to pay 100.000 per year interest-only, and what happens then if you lose your job ?!

    Think about it : Can you *REALLY* afford an investment property ?
    Answer : If you have to pay more than 3 times your wages you CAN NOT !!…

    Remember this : You cannot pay back what you owe to the bank : You will go bankrupt.
    Do not put yourself in this situation, it's NOT WORTH IT.

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    Well, Ben : you have your answer : don't buy now. Just wait till Januari 2009. The inside info all points to only 1 thing : Wait with buying, you will get loads more for your money later, than before.

    And seeing stagflation is just around the corner, you will be happy you have some spare cash to survive the 'harsh times' where the debt bubble deflates ( debt bubbles deflate in stagflation times ).

    Just read the news, if you think the news is very positive, then do NOT buy. If you think they're very negative, don't buy either. When the news focuses on other things, then it's the time to buy. When everyone stops talking about real estate, when noone cares about it anymore, when everyone warns you of the dangers and everyone knows at least 1 guy who lost their fortunes in real estate : THEN it's time to invest in property.

    That won't be anytime soon.

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    Let's take a house worth 500.000$ AUD. Let's assume you only pay off interest ( for mathematical ease )
    The interest over 10 years ( at current rates , which will go up ) is 475.000$ AUD.
    IF … ( and they don't ) properties go up every 10 years, that still means you didn't make a profit if you calculate CPI over 10 years ( 5% per year = 71% over 10 years ).

    If property doubled every 7 years, then a house since 1800 has multiplied in value by a factor of 2097152
    So, if anyone in 1800 bought a house for 1 dollar, it would be worth 2097152 dollars now.

    Looking a bit in the future, that house would be worth 33.554.432 in 2050.
    If the house was worth 3 dollars in 1800, the house would be worth 100.000.000 in 2050.
    Call me crazy, but I really don't think house prices have doubled every 10 years. that's only since the 50's , and even then, it's only because of the cheap credit available.

    Oh.. and guess what : http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,25479,23846881-5013952,00.html
    Days of easy credit are over. Like I predicted long time ago, and like I predicted also that banks will be limited by law in the amount they are allowed to lend to people. Sorry for the bad news guys, but this really can't be stopped.

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    Maxxi, just show up at http://www.globalhousepricecrash.com
    Read and educate yourself, some smart people around there. There's bears and bulls alike on the forum, there's statistics and everything you want to make up your own mind. What I do here is exactly the same as everyone else is doing on this forum : Provide no data or statistics at all , just feelings and opinions.

    For my statistics and data , go to GPHC.

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    Excellent advice from Duckster.
    Pay off loans, no credit cards, investigate the market, don't step in now but wait a bit till the crash passed, until then save as much as you can, don't eat fancy restaurants and don't buy expensive car or plasma TV. Get a cheap hobby ( fishing  or something ) or get a second job, and buy everything you buy second-hand. Save up what you can. This way you prove to banks / parents / grandma etc that you are financially wise and you might get an initial help from them ( especially parents if you can, otherwise banks ).

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    The only city I would invest in ( if I were to buy right now ) would be Melbourne, but not Adelaide.
    Mind you, in Melbourne the prices will also drop, but due to the better infrastructure and the amount of work there, it won't be affected as much as for instance Brisbane or Perth or Sydney.

    Gold coast is nice when economy does well. But once that stops, prices plunge there.

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    Maxxi wrote:
    if you understand mortgages well then you will know that the Serviceability ratios for purchasing/lending are between 4-6 to 1 depending on O/O or Investment Property. 
    Therefore, it's not the $50K income earners that are driving the market.  And …. all of those that cant get into the market are long term renters/tenants….

    KatherineM,

    The South Australian market is doing very well at the moment.  Last year it increased by 23% and it sutuated as one of the best capital cities for growth in Australia.  The March results were already reported at 4.5% which is setting it up for double figures for the year.  This growth is due to four things …. 1/ The relatively well priced housing in SA …2/ The increase in rental values…
    3/ The Defense Contracts that are flurishing in Adelaide eg Submarine base construction contract…. 4/ The Mining Boom in Northern SA.

    – The right mortgage ratio should be 3 times income. 4 times is pushing it. 6 times is plain idioticly high.
    – Those that can't get into the market are people who borrow up to 10 times their wages, and even buy PI's.
    You're right to say they "should not be allowed in the market" .. but sad truth is they get themselves into more debt than they can afford. At the moment, we're at the point that even 2 incomes can't keep up with the house prices. That's assuming you're a dink, and don't have kids. If you have kids, you're already outpriced now, no matter if you have 1 or 2 incomes in the household. Only dinks can afford houses now, but they have locked themselves into 10% mortgages for the next 20 years.
    – Who cares about last year increase of 23% ? That figure by itself should be a BIG warning to stay out of the market. Never buy in a topped off market.
    – The march results don't say anything. It's median houseprices. In the end of a housing boom , the houseprices go down but medians go up, I have already explained why ( less cheap houses sell, thus the 'median' will go up, but only because less houses are sold )

    1/ The relatively well priced housing in SA …
    It's not well-prices. Well priced compared to what ? Compared to Sydney CBD ? Relatively well-priced SHOULD be 100.000 median houseprice, they're unproportionally higher. Those who lived in Adelaide 20 years ago will remember the 10% unemployment, and houses worth squat.
    2/ The increase in rental values…
    Rental values are about to drop , because a massive amount of non-sold houses will flood the market , driving rental prices down.
    3/ The Defense Contracts that are flurishing in Adelaide
    Economy is slowing, this means defense contracts will end soon or be cancelled.
    4/ The Mining Boom in Northern SA.
    In what way does a mining boom affect a city 400 km away from the mining area ? And besides, China's economy is in a BIG recession and also plunged 8% in 1 day. What happens to Australia's mining boom when China goes into a fatal recession ?

    Conclusion : Don't buy any housing now, ESPECIALLY not in Adelaide.

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