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  • Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    @quickchick
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    In my opinion, Park Trent (or any other similar group) have 2 products to market.
    1.  The properties they want to sell.
    2. Investment education.

    Please note the order above!

    If you want to buy an investment property, you can either buy one yourself, or buy one through a group which wants to sell you its merchandise. They set the buy price. They make a commission on your purchase. They make a commission on your rental. 
    Or buy yourself, independently (check for the going prices in the area, first! Both sale, and rental, to get a reasonable return.) 

    If you are unsure of what to buy and where, I recommend you pay for some education form  someone who does NOT have a ready-made product to sell. That way, you buy a property that does not already have a "retail mark-up".

    quickchick  
    Your choice. 

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    I have not invested in Defence housing myself. However, someone I know works for the Defence Force and had these warnings….
    1. You may (will) have a long lease that sounds good now, but is there a clause prohibiting increase of rents over a period of eg 5 yrs! (Could leave you well behind.
    2. Your buying price is often over-inflated ie you pay too much for the property!
    3. You may only be able to sell back to the Defence force at their chosen price, during the term of the lease. Even if not, if your lease at time of sale is eg $100 pw behind local rates, then what investor will want to buy it? 

    All of this info is as I remember him saying, not sure exactly. But a few things to look at very carefully, read all ypour fine print very carefully!

    Quickchick.

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    @quickchick
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    Thanks Bardon. Useful info.

    As distinct from our other  contributor who should stick with "fighting the NWO".
    Your profit from your PPOR is NOT taxable. No matter how much you make, or what you spend the money on. Whether a car, world trip or deposit on another property, (investment or PPOR.)
    I've been there and done that so I DO know.

    However, if you are creating an ongoing income stream by doing this multiple times it will be considered as a business model by the tax dept. ie they will consider you a "property trader".
    At which point, you need to be talking to a good accountant, and using a structure (eg)  such as a trust operated by a company.
    NB Find out from your accountant…. I am not a financial advisor or accountant! But have had this discussion with our accountant, as it pertains to our own situation which may differ to others. But don't take the word of those who assume they know what they actually don't!

    And if you've done a few and are making good money, by using this live-in/reno model, then paying tax is not a bad thing. 

    quickchick

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Hi Futzy

    I'm a bit unsure of your reason for this "investment".

    I know nothing of investing in Tasmania. But I do know a bit about investing.
    There are two common reasons to "invest".
    1. To achieve a capital gain.
     2. For positive cashflow.
    3. (Which is dubious in my opinion) to make a loss, ie to negatively gear and thus pay less tax.

    From the info of others above,
    1. May not happen in your 4 year time frame (ie only  a HOPE that it will increase over your entry costs (stamp duty and legals). Maybe you are a first home buyer, which saves the stamp duty. But then you have to live in the house for at least 6 months in the first year of ownership. Any price rise still speculative.
    2. The above info assures me that you will not have a positive or even neutral cash flow.
    3. You will negatively gear!

    If you plan to live in this house, you will confuse the issue on selling it, as you will have to pay capital gains tax if it is an investment. If you plan to negatively gear it in the short term, that means you WILL have to pay CGT on at least a percentage of the (hoped for) profit.

    On the other hand, if you sell in about 4 years and don't make any money, or lose it, then you can't call it an investment. The description in this case of your property in a liability. And an Investor should never buy on emotions, just on clod hard numbers.

    If you are able to sub divide, this may be a good strategy. But check with the council FIRST! ie before buying!

    If not too late.

    Sorry to be negative, but just trying to help you see the range of possibilities! 

    Quickchick.     

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Needing DA from council, I presume, Bardon.
    What is the minimum height to build under? Or will it vary from council to council?

    quickchick

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Getting back to your original question!

    It is not currently easy to make money from a reno, but is possible. But you would have to buy (very) well, budget your renos tightly and stick to it, sell quickly etc. You mention your wife is an architect, to use her professional skills would mean you need a D.A. (ie structural changes), which means your holding time is longer, which saps up more  interest on your loan.

    If you could live in the house while you reno'd it, would save your rent in the meantime. If you have young kids, this could be impractical/unsafe.

    If I was you I'd be doing Dean and Elise Parker's seminar on Renovations. They've got a great system for counting all the costs.
    Much cheaper than doing one, and blowing your budget and then not being able to sell easily.

    Good luck!

    Quickchick.  

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Hey Kkrishna

    Just read this post for the first time.
    Have done a lot of pricing for renos in my area (SW Sydney) in last 6 months.
    And haven't done one. (Have done a successful one several years ago.)

    Reason being, I am NOT going to get into a deal that may end up losing me money!

    You start by saying you do not have any money for deposit "unfortunately" There is nothing unfortunate about it.
    Fact is, you spend what you earn, therefore you do not have any savings….

    If that is your starting point, that is quite OK. Many of us start eaxctly there!
    However, this should be your wake-up call..
    Time to get your finances under your control!
    If you can't manage your personal finances, do you believe you can manage the finances for a reno as a novice, and with no mentioned skills eg are you a tradie/handyman?

    Your holding costs are a BIG issue, (re-read Terry's post). Based on $185,000 total loan, at 8% interest in 6 months that is
     $7,400. IF you can sell the minute you put it on the market (in today's poor market). However, if you sell within 12 months of buying, you will have to pay Capital Gains tax on 100% of your profit, assessed on your total income for the year. eg 30% of your profit to Aussie Tax Office.

    So there is NO PROFIT for you in this deal. Just a lot of hard work, and a possible loss at the end.

    My advice.
    1. start saving
    2. try investing in your education (way cheaper than making a loss!) Steve McKnight's latest book is a great starting point.
    3. try to find people doing what you'd like to do, and help them ( with a bit of hard work) in exchange for a bit of experience..

    Quickchick.

       

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Hey Matt

    Can help with some of your questions..

    I'm certain that the FHOG will never apply to you again… next house will not be your first. Unfortunate for you. New FHOG will not apply forever, but not sure how long for!

    Re Wollongong, we live 40 mins away. Is there any possibility of improving your IP there, eg reno, add bedroom eg from second living area? Or even add granny flat (increase rent, more attractive to another investor to buy.)

    My view on an IP is sometimes you need to get out of a poorly performing property, to get into a better investment.
    In your case, it means realising a capital loss. Which may be worse than you think, ie may be vacant while on the market, agents fees, sell for less than you expect. (We have recently sold a local property which was  $279,000 18 months ago. For $225,000) So be realistic before you put it on the market, if you choose to. 

    Another possibility (and my view for short term) is what if property values drop? I think that the FHOG will not make prices rise, but may stop them from falling more than a bit. Maybe new houses will sell a bit better with the new FHOG. If prices drop, would you then wish you had sold this year?
    There's not too many buyers out there, which is why prices are not so good.

    On the other hand, your rental has to be going up, ie improving the return from when you bought it.

    If you do buy again, think thru your strategy as it's not easy to make money in real estate at the moment. (Having said so, I own I.P's too.)   

    Good indication of next boom will be when prices start to rise. Very hard to pick the bottom of the market.

    Quickchick. 
     

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Sorry, Tina, I didn't mean to sound derogatory! Email is a bit of a hard medium to convey sentiment!

    I reckon the old armchair investing, from the comfort of your own home, is great!

    (ie Works for me!)

    I bought a property in Dysart that way, 2 1/2 years ago… wasn't a bad move, as readers of this post agree.

    You go, girl!

    Quickchick. 

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Just a suggestion, Tina….

    From your armchair, google "Alinta" and see what you can find out about the proposed gas plant at Blackwater.

    Works for listed companies, if you look up ASX to see what their more recent news is.

    From your lounge room, you can gather lots of info and see lots of potential.

    Quickchick.

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Many people who take on a 6 month lease will be more than happy to stay on a month by month basis after their original lease expires. Shouldn't be a problem.

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Hi Jas

    I applaud your sentiment, wanting to help your Mum out.

    But if things don't work out, can she afford to lose even the $60K suggested, and still keep her house?
    I'm not saying you won't succeed, but you have to be prepared to live with the risk.

    And so does your Mum.

    Not all property investors have success, we have done way better than if we had not invested.
    But friends of ours who have done investing (including developing) are in trouble at the moment, with their "empire" at risk due to 2 not-so-good investments.

    Part of investing has to be risk evaluation and management. Make sure you plan for every contingency, as something going wrong could break the family up….. which would cause your Mum more grief than having a thrify retirement, arguably.  

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    We recently found our bank (ANZ) very bearish, would only lend up to  65% on block of 8 units in large Sydney suburb. Then would only lend up to 60% for renos. Which would have been OK except their 17 month old valuations (they only re-value every 18 months) was very out of date in mining areas.

    Didn't make any difference as our offer was not accepted by vendor!

    Generally 4+ units considered commercial, we left Westpac as they wouldn't budge on this.

    Now we probably recognise the need to be with more than one bank so we will have more options in the future.

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    There is the opportunity to do it alone, or joint venture with them on an agreed basis, ie your time plus their expertise. Could start as joint ventue then when confidence builds, go it alone. I'd think that using their legal people would have to be an advantage, as not many solicitors would know their way around property options. (Would have to be in joint names, I'd suppose.

    I do not recall him developing, I'm pretty sure that he is only in the options side, and on-sells.

    Their concept is buying an option, value-add by having a DA done, then selling pre-settlement. ie option-buying entity pays the DA cost. So whether you also pay stamp duty (not sure of this myself) you have made a substantial investment even if you don't take up the option to buy. 

    If I was to pursue the options idea, (in your shoes) I certainly would do his course, and JV at least to start……
    Leverage from his experience! (I agree with Dr Robert on this.)

    Are you JV'ing with Mark's group, Dr Robert? Love to hear when you've completed first option how it went!

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    You have to pay water rates, but can pass excess use to tenants. Body Corporates pay for building insurance, bought as a group for the whole property. Beware the sinking fund, its a "mini-bank" for the Body Corp. If some major work needs doing, they can demand all owners to put in $x thousand. It would be good to attend the body corp meetings, to get to know the system (once you've bought).
    My choice would always be, to purchase a basic 3 bed house rather than a strata titled unit. Saves the fees, gives you more choice . And probably goes up in value more than units/townhouses.
    You will have to pay 7-10% commission to agent managing your property as well (unless you manage it yourself). With a new lease, the agent typically takes the first week's rent as a letting fee. (Limit of once a year.)

    Plenty of expenses, but talk to your accountant and make sure you know what to expect.

    Quickchick. 

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    I did a one day course a year or more ago with Mark Rolton.
    it was very inspiring and exciting, but then we found we needed to join RPData (no provision for group joining at this stage). Cost when we investigated, would be about $600 per month. Ouch!
    Some of the concepts were certainly worthwhile, but we decided that to put so much money (RPData) and time into it, JV with them (too difficult to do ourselves after one day's info), was not for us.
    I'm not averse to paying for education, but not sure when (if) this info will benefit our investing….

    Quickchick.  

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    I doubt that your parents can buy part of any house with super funds. There are strict laws around super loans. maybe they could buy the family home, and leave you free to sub-divide and build? Definitely need to ask your accountant about this one!

    To sub-divide, I think you'll need to have building plans drawn up (check with council).

    Quickchick.

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    We have family in Melbourne with evaporative air con (and use it properly, with windows ajar etc).
    We're there after Christmas every year, sweating and stifling…… evaproative is OK if its NOT very hot or very humid.
    When do you need air con?……. When its very hot or very humid!

    Regarding property inprovements, I gather you're hoping to add perceived value, get it re-valued for future purpose of investing against. 
    Easy to do in a rising property market, but not really now, in my opinion.
    The best thing, if you're keen to invest, is to budget carefully, pay more off your mortgage, and NOT spend $$ on your PPOR.
    That way, you can afford to get into the investing market earlier.
    Floor coverings are unlikely to boost your house value, a deck may do. But like I said, better to invest in an investment, not in your PPOR which as Kiyosaki says, is a liability not an assett. (On the basis it costs you eg rates, bills, and does not give you income.)

    The more of our income we spend on lifestyle (including home improvements), the less we have to invest with.
    A bit of a delay now will be worth it in the long run! (It is, believe me!)

    good luck with your investing.

    Quickchick. 

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Hi Reddy.
    Just read your last entry, seems like a reasonable idea.
    Try one of the Porperty investment magazines in your newsagent, they often have  a guide in the back of recent (ie monthly) compared to yearly prices in areas across Aus. Helpful, but not prescriptive.
    I have found that an area that has gone ahead eg 10% average cap growth for last 4 yrs, may not keep this up consistently. eg then you buy it, and it goes back 2% that next yr! Sometimes wise to look for areas that have gone ahead, then buy in a surrounding (but not overinflated) area a suburb  away (See Steve's latest book.)
    Be aware that the areas regarded as string capital growth are traditionally closer to town, ie more expensive, and rental return may be worse percentage wise, than  outer area eg Hoppers Crossing.

    Good luck (always an element of luck involved!)

    Quickchick.  

    Profile photo of quickchickquickchick
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    Re Reddys' question: I strongly recommend some "boring" points:

    Have an investment strategy. Reasons to invest in property include, 1. for cashflow, 2. for capital growth. (3. both, it is possible!)
    4. as a tax write-off (negative gearing, write your losses off and hope for capital growth to make it worthwhile in the long run).

    This way, you'll know if your property is performing according to your strategy. If not, probably time to sell! ie if its making a loss. 
    As Steve would advise, its not that easy to buy positive cashflow, so what you buy needs to be able to have value added by you. ie choose carefully to buy something you can improve to meet your target.

    As Scamp would love to say, property CAN drop in price eg Western Sydney, has dropped by about 25% over last few years. But what he (she?) won't tell you is that it is most unlikely to drop on a hurry. Whereas gold, or share prices, can drop much more quickly than it climbs (see sharemarket charts, and compare!).  Boring strategy no 2. is, have a stop loss (for shares) or cut off limit for property, eg if it drops by more than 7.5% in value, I'll sell.  By this time, your investment by definition would then be a LIABILITY! Value is a bit subjective, but even a valuation by 2 different real estate agents (free!) will give you a fair indication.  You also need to have a time-line in mind. (Few properties in suburbia will appreciate by much in 9 months, Reddy!)

    The only 100% sure way to know which area will be good for capital growth is hindsight (applies to sharemarket too).
    But you can increase your "luck" enormously by reading and learning. We have all made some mistakes along the way, but generally not disastrously, just enough to learn something! But cheaper to learn from someone else… read Steve's last book, and listen to CD. 

    The worst investment choice is arguably NOT to invest.  Currently you may actually get better interest with money in  the bank, but this is quite uncommon! Mostly, bank interest is less than  inflation (before bank fees), so not a good investment.
    The start of a good investment is to buy a property with good potential, at a bit below the market price.
     
    All my opinion, (and learned from others), but it has worked, and is working for me!

    quickchick.    
     

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