OK consulted further with our accountant and he will file a client update with the ATO every year that we are away. This will keep things ticking over and they’ll (ATO) have a record of our losses, which will be calculated against our first tax return once we are back.
I also got a rude shock when I got a couple of real estate firms to give me a market appraisal – nothing what I expected and in fact we would be making a sizable loss (after calculating selling costs, etc) of between $25-35K.
End result, we hold onto it, endure the dry days (beer money being saved) and have an IP that will hopefully grow as time goes on. My wife keeps reminding me that we’re in it for the long haul (10+ years).
We’re actually NZ citizens, but have been living in Oz for over seven years. I suspect that because I’m not an Australian citizen I might not be able to accumulate the losses and offset it against the capital gains. Many times I have thought about becoming an Australian citizen but ……
Just to give you some background on the property, we brought it just over two years ago, and whilst the capital growth has been modest, I suspect that we’ll make a loss given the selling costs plus the fact that we financed the purchase costs (recommendation from the accountant).
1. Current market value $310K AUD
2. Financed amount $285K AUD
3. Purchase price $265K AUD
4. Annual rental return $14,300 AUD
5. Deprecation schedule not too shabby – approx $10K AUD first year
For me to continue with the investment, I need to work on the following assumptions:
1. We will move back to Oz
2. Can carry the losses forward each year
3. Can continue to finance the shortfall each year – approx $12K AUD, when you take into account maintenance costs etc. This also becomes challenging because I now need to take into account forex, transaction costs etc
My current thinking is:
1. Sell the property as one of the key foundations, tax write-off / returns will be missing
2. Use the freed up capital to invest in something more liquidity especially if we are to move elsewhere e.g. China – shush don’t tell my wife that
3. Chalk it down to the fact that the lovely Australian tax system encourages you to make investments that you might not normally make e.g. tax shelters etc
What you have sounds like a common scenario. The tiler is right when he says that the old tile and lino glue has to be removed first.
You may be able to find another floor preparation contractor that has a smaller (read lighter) grinder that is more portable and can be muscled up some stairs. Certainly they have hand held grinders that can also do the job, but are more labourious.
Don’t go down the ‘solvents’ road as this is smelly and dangerous.
Also you could hire a hand held diamond grinder from ‘Kennards’ or the like and do the job yourself if your so inclined.
Finally ensure the machines are ‘dustless’ as this will make the job a lot cleaner at the end.
I admire your passion and your desire to protect people. Both qualities are admirable and sadly, all too rare….especially in accountants.
I have many accountants approach me with a view to picking my brain as to what I think and why I think it….and, as a result of my admiration for your qualities, I am extend an invitation to you or your partners to do the same.
Not all accountants, or tax practitioners, read and understand tax law the same way. That is why, for example, we see so many issues in tax law go to court for the judges to decide on what is right and what is wrong.
It is also interesting to note that it is not uncommon for court decisions on tax related matters to be split 3 in favour and 2 against…or vice versa.
So, if our legal system and the smartest and wisest people in the country cannot be absolutely certain how the tax law should be read, interpreted and applied, then….how can a simple accountant hope to be 100% right, all the time?
Clearly, they cannot.
All they can do is seek opinions from more learned people than themselves and study the law and the court decisions that apply to the law.
Point 2
If you ask an accountant…can I claim this, or that? The answer has to be a yes, or a no.
Accountants are taught and trained to be conservative and so they will often say no as a way of protecting their client.
However, if you ask an accountant “how can I claim this, or that?
Then you are assuming it can be done and the accountant will open his or her mind to find a way for that particular item to be claimed.
This is one of the most important tools an investor can develop.
8. On the other hand, relatively inexpensive Christmas gifts of food or drink that will be consumed by the employees at home (such as a bottle of whiskey or wine or a hamper of food) are not regarded as being the provision of entertainment for the purposes of subsection 51AE(4). Expenditure incurred on such gifts will be treated as an allowable deduction in calculating the taxable income of the employer.
Point 4
INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT ACT 1997
CHAPTER 1 – INTRODUCTION AND CORE PROVISIONS
PART 1-3 – CORE PROVISIONS
Division 8 – Deductions
TABLE OF SECTIONS
8-1 General deductions
8-5 Specific deductions
8-10 No double deductions
SECTION 8-1 General deductions
8-1(1) You can deduct from your assessable income any loss or outgoing to the extent that:
(a) it is incurred in gaining or producing your assessable income; or
(b) it is necessarily incurred in carrying on a *business for the purpose of gaining or producing your assessable income.
[
Note:
Division 35 prevents losses from non-commercial business activities that may contribute to a tax loss being offset against other assessable income.]
History
S 8-1(1) amended by No 90 of 2000, s 3 and Sch 1 item 1, by inserting the Note at the end, applicable to assessments for the 2000/01 and later income years.
8-1(2) However, you cannot deduct a loss or outgoing under this section to the extent that:
(a) it is a loss or outgoing of capital, or of a capital nature; or
(b) it is a loss or outgoing of a private or domestic nature; or
(c) it is incurred in relation to gaining or producing your *exempt income or your *non-assessable non-exempt income; or
(d) a provision of this Act prevents you from deducting it.
For a summary list of provisions about deductions, see section 12-5.
History
S 8-1(2) amended by No 66 of 2003, s 3 and Sch 3 item 57, by inserting “or your *non-assessable non-exempt income” for “*exempt income” in para (c), applicable to assessments for the 2003-04 income years and later income years.
8-1(3) A loss or outgoing that you can deduct under this section is called a general deduction.
For the effect of the GST in working out deductions, see Division 27.
[
Note:
If you receive an amount as insurance, indemnity or other recoupment of a loss or outgoing that you can deduct under this section, the amount may be included in your assessable income: see Subdivision 20-A. ]
History
S 8-1(3) amended by No 41 of 2005, s 3 and Sch 2 items 2 and 3, by substituting “Note” for “Note 1” in Note 1 and repealing Note 2, applicable to assessments for the first income year starting on or after 1 July 2005 and later income years. Note 2 formerly read:
“Note 2: A cash accounting regime applies for general deductions, and some other deductions, incurred by STS taxpayers: see Division 328. “
S 8-1(3) amended by No 78 of 2001, s 3 and Sch 2 items 3 and 4, by renaming the note as “Note 1” and inserting Note 2, applicable to assessments for the first income year starting after 30 June 2001, and for later income years.
S 8-1(3) amended by No 176 of 1999, s 3 and Sch 3 item 2, by inserting the reference to Division 27 at the end, effective 1 July 2000.
S 8-1(3) amended by No 16 of 1998.
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Perhaps our friend should be grateful that I do not believe in suing people…..but, I can tell you that comments like the ones posted on this forum did have my legal friends salivating at the chance to flex their muscles…
Defamation essentially takes two forms – libel (often characterised as involving a statement in a ‘permanent form’, such as a print or online publication or an electronic broadcast) and slander (typically an oral statement that is not published).
As discussed later in this profile, the definition of defamation and defences vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. However, defamation broadly involves a statement that tends to diminish an individual’s reputation in the estimation of others. That diminution may be restricted to the person’s honour or may extend to the individual’s capacity to earn a living or fully participate in society.
In many jurisdictions the author’s intention is not of primary concern: it is enough that a defamatory statement was made and received by an audience. That audience might be an individual’s professional peers, residents of a small community or people across a nation.
Typically defamation law allows an individual to claim some redress for a statement that is found to be defamatory.
That redress might be restricted to an apology by those responsible for the statement, with a publisher for example printing a retraction acknowledging that the statement was incorrect. It might extend to the payment of damages that provide recompense for suffering/loss and that signal society’s condemnation of the statement, with such exemplary damages acting as a deterrent against republication of the statement or similar publication.
I am devastated to read the comments in this thread, but, they were brought to my attention by someone who thought they were defamatory….
I am well aware that some people will not understand what is an allowable tax deduction and what is not allowable under the tax law.
The book showed possible tax deductions which are common for many, many businesses.
Does BHP give rewards to its employees in the form of a gift hamper? Does Coles Meyer give small gifts to its employees?
No, not all items are deductible to all people and in all circumstances and I apologise if I have given the impression that they can be.
However, a trust can provide small gifts to its employees (and if we look at the tax law we will see that emmployees are defined very broadly and includes directors) as part of its normal day to day operations under Section 8-1 of the 1997 ITAA.
As fot the hynrid trust comments….I am very hapy to provide a copy of the Private Binding Ruling from the tax office confirming that this is acceptable to the tax office.
Perhaps the person who takes such great umbrage and wishes to speak ill would be wise to act as a professional and do their research properly before making such inflammatory comments.
Or, they may wish to politely ask me why and how and I would have gladly given my time (for free) to explain to them my thoughts and discuss the issues.
Today, it seems is a very sad day in the world when people behave in such a manner. Whatever happened to respect, politeness and courtesy?
Jeez, you guys have been good to respond – thanks!
My challenge is that I will need a 100% mortgage. After many years of hard work, I finally have a good income but nothing saved (yet), hence the 100% loan. I am also self-employed which means that I am limited as to where I can go to get a home loan. My last year’s figures are good, but previous to that they are not. I have discovered that not many lenders will only look at the last year’s figures, as opposed to taking an average of two years. St George seems to be a good option for me.
I presume that would limit my options????
If anyone can shed further light on this and re-affirm that I could buy-and-build or buy-and-subdivide, even with a loan on this basis, that would be so helpful……or even buy-and-renovate.
Are there any mortgage brokers out there that would like to clarify this???
What is the title of the book? I will check it out.
Does anyone at all have any feedback on ‘my strategy’???
I’m currently hoping to buy a little terrace in the city fringe that I can do up. Surely soemone has an opinion on this as whether or not it’s a good way to go to build equity fast??!!! [worried]
I have reading these posts with interest – particularly on the WA front. Personally, I have just “cashed in” and sold 2 properties (my only 2 IP’s by the way!) as I couldn’t resist the big gains that had been made and was eager to use the suplus funds to pay off my home loan (which is costing over $1000 / month in non-tax deductable interest! I did this just before the rate hike. One of the properties has grown by 32% since I bought it 12 months ago and the other has nearly tripled in alue since I bought it around 6 years ago. I just copuldn’t resist with such frenzied buying here in WA pushing prices to ridiculous levels. I did this purely on gut instinct as my gut is telling me that the market is looking a bit toppy here in WA. Sure there are plenty of underlying factors to support more growth – but affordability has to become an issue at some point. I really feel for the first homebuyer faced with the prospect of paying 300K for a dog box and being up to their ears in debt for the next 25 years.
I think it’s a briliant idea – go for it. Yes, you do defniitely need to be very organized and professional so that buyers feel safe buying from you. It is a legal requirement to have the contract prepared….your lawyer can advise you on other protocol as well. Pretend you are an agent yourself and go through all the same steps that they would with a new listing. Present it as well as possible. Enlist the tenants cooperation. (You could even pay for a cleaner before the Opens if you think the property value merits it). You could also pay an agnet to run through the process with you and get local tips and advice. That’s what would I would do. I would sling someone $200 cash to sit with me for an hour and go through all the best local avenues. If you are not comfortable negotiating, you might even be able to enlist a friend’s help to do this for you!
Thanks so much to everyone for your input, I’m very grateful.
Thanks to your information, I have been able to make two decisions
1) I have made a decision to purchase my PPOR ‘safely’ and NOT to use my tax money. I will wait until I have all my tax saved to date and then to get a 100% offset loan, against which I can temporarily use this saved tax money.
2) Much as I would love to do the Richmastery course, right now it’s best that I hang onto my money. I’ve going to buy a few more good books and keep reading this forum whcih I think is FAB!!!
Thanks HEAPS to everyone for your replies This Forum is so cool!
By the way, I’ve changed my name from brilliantstar to sancutary – I hope you’re not confused.
You’re right, I’m self-employed….and this is already starting to sound a bit complex as a starting point in property. I think the best thing to do is probably to have the 100% offset account. The truth is that I’m acutally saving to catch up on tax that I know will be due later….which is frustrating as I’d love to use it towards property. So I still won’t be ready to buy on 100% until October-ish – maybe before.
Once thing I have learnt though is to do things at a ‘comfortable level’ and I would be much more comfortable knowing I already have my tax money sitting on my mortgage! I was hoping for an easy solution but it seems it’s not so simple!
Also, re my second question – does anyone have any feedback on that? I am currently considering buying a stack of the right books and some DVDs which will set me back around $400, not $4000. If I focus on buying a high capital growth property and adding value, then I’d like to think I woudl have a decent stash of equity 6-12 months after buying my home. Then I can REALLY get started, and myabe do the Richamstery course then. Any advice/feedback???
Who noticed the size of that first vidio he wanted us to watch?
I watched about 1/4 (if that) of it and thought to myself “I better check how much this vid is is using up”… well when I saw 200MB I stoped straight away.
I would have really liked to watch the whole thing but at the expense of using up 1000MB and then some just a few days into the month?? I dont think so!
mint man,
I would love to watch these videos and look at the info but I cant get to the page. the link steve sent in the email didnt work for me.
Why is it you want to get a personal loan from family and friends?
Are you just starting out in property investing and if so, why not use a bank?
Think long and hard about involving family and friends, especially if you are new to this game. If there are problems ahead, your friendships may turn sour. They may think ……
– you are just using them
– they may never see their money again
– they have the right to interfere with your investing decisions
– they can give you their negative opinion about property
– they might change thier mind and want thier money back pronto
If however you have done a few deals, and have a few (3 or 4) investment properties already under your belt, then money makes money and banks will will lend you more than enough to keep going, if they see you can handle it well.
My personal opinion is that if you are new to property investing, do the hard slog and prove to yourself and the bank that you can do it on your own. The 1st one is the hardest.
I created a wealth creation plan and gave it to my bank / broker stating our (my & my hubby’s) plans to borrow approx 1 million to finance positive cashflow investment properties. I stated our income, what we owned and owed and we were on our way with approval to borrow up to half that. You need to take the small steps in order to get to the bigger ones.
Using a broker initially can be a good idea as they want you to get a loan as they get a commission, whereas if you go to a bank. they get a salary and can say yes or no without it affecting their income.
Others may have different ideas, but this was the situation that I could sleep well with, without worrying about my family and friends opinions.
Hope some of that helps!
All the best!
Pepsi
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