Holy Cow Rubbachook! I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the name!
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Hi people,
I guess many people just “lurk” and try to learn. I find ppl here very friendly and helpful. I am used to seeing really catty behaviour on another chat forum (a well known auction trading site).
But the people here are very different, they are goal oriented and would not waste their time bagging others the way they do on this other site I visit.
Hi Carrington. It’s amazing that you posted your comment under a topic which was started by someone who caught the wrong end of some pretty catty behaviour on this forum not so long ago. I would just wait and see if I were you…
I know what you mean about the negativity of Neil Jenman and yeah it does come out a lot in the book too. I would agree he’s a bit old fashioned too. I don’t agree with all he says but he has a lot of facts in his book not just opinions and I don’t think I could question his ethics. There is still heaps of gems to be found in it so go for it.
I believe it’s true and the reason Neil tells people about it is because of the dirty tricks some real estate agents and autioneers play to pressure both the buyers and sellers into something they regret later. If you haven’t read “Don’t Sign Anything” by Neil Jenman I recommend it. It is full of a lot of tips that real estate agents don’t want the public to know and can save you thousands.
I have told everyone I have emailed the spreadsheet to that I can’t claim the credit for it. Sure has saved me a lot of work and helped cull the crap from the possibilities.
Yeah I agree with you Kay. I suspect when I sit down with them one on one and tell them I’m only interested in cash flow +ve or neutral they will lose interest in me quick.
I was wondering tho’. I know I’m going to be over simplifying here and I’m not taking into to account all the factors but doesn’t the cycle go a bit like this:
1) Rent yields high and purchase prices high so few +ve cashflow properties around. Top of the sellers market like 2002/3.
2) Rent yields still high but purchase prices start to fall (interest rates rise etc) so more +ve cashflow properties. Like expected for 2004/5/6.
3) Rents start to drop too because people decide they can buy for less than renting (& other factors of course) so they start buying and vacancies go up thus rent down. Around 2006/7/8
4) Purchase prices start upwards and (lagging behind a bit) so does rent. 2008/9/10
Back to step 1 in 2010/11/12.
Okay don’t jump on me for the oversimplification of a very complex system [] But seems to me that in stage 2 and 4 you will find the most cashflow +ve properties. Which means soon they will start appearing again. When house prices drop off so do building prices which means even this company that won’t deal with anything that isn’t new will still be able to source cashflow +ve places.
As for the depreciation point, when you buy something that is say 10 years old or whatever, you can only depreciate the construction costs MINUS the first 10 years worth of depreciation which is where the biggest tax deductions are. (ie the longer you depreciate the smaller the amount you can depreciate if you get what I mean).
As you said Kay, no harm in attending when there free. Though the info presented was only the basics and they do seem to be focused on -ve geared properties and capital growth, there were a few things I learnt and they had a few “interesting” points of view. Not saying I agree with them but others might find them interesting.
They say:
* Only buy brand new homes/townhouses/etc. The main reasons for this was to take advantage of the new depreciation laws which allows you to depreciate the cost of construction at 2.5% over 40 years. Their other reason was less maintenance costs.
* Only buy in major cities. Their reason for this is in regional centres single issues (eg industries/employment etc) may have an adverse affect on the property market. This does not mean that some of these centres haven’t enjoyed significant growth over the last year or so, but for consistent capital growth, the major capital centres have proved more reliable over the long term
* Don’t buy a property that is built to attract an investor. Their reasoning is that properties that are attractive to owner/occupiers will have better return and demand over the long term.
* Buy and hold.
* Don’t buy a house that is below the medium house price for the area or more than 40% over it.
Somthing I learnt that could be very valuable was:
* In some situations (they didn’t explain which) in unit complexes where there are shared facilities such as pool, gym etc it is possible that you can claim a percentage of their construction cost too. !Big money save here if true!
Hi Jane. It depends on the town. While the figures look like they add up okay what do you know about the town. Is its population growing, declining, stable? What are the major employers there and are any of them expanding or closing. What plans do the council have for development in the future. Have you visited the town? Are all the shops in town tenanted or are some closed up and vacant? Out of the 8,000 people there what % rent?
Sorry to bombard you with questions but in my opinion, these are the things you need to know if you want to be sure its a good IP to buy especially if buying in a regional town. Otherwise it’s all just pot luck!
Hi,
We have found a similar deal. 4 two bedroom units rented at $800 per week, all tennanted, for sale for $560K. Is this a good deal or not? We put in an offer of $420K knowing it would be turned down, but a starting point for negotiating.
Fibe.
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Hi Fibe. If you could get it for around $500k it sounds like it could be a good buy, but to know for sure you want to know what are the yearly rates, managment and/or strata costs and insurance cost.
Hi again redwing. The loan repayments on $270000 is $15,900/yr or $305pw. So there goes any profit. Add that to those management costs and it becomes a -ve geared property. Here’s the figures:
loan
Principal 256500
Type Interest only
Term 30
Interest rate 6.20%
Weekly repay $305.83
Annual cash flow received
Rent per week 420
weeks 50 (assuming 2 weeks no tenant)
Total cashflow received $21,000.00
Annual cashflow spent
Loan repay 15,903.00
Management costs 6,000
Shire Rates and Water Rates 0
Insurance 200
Repairs Maintenance 4,160
Total cash outflow $26,263.00
Annual cashflow position
Total cashflow in $21,000.00
Total cashflow out $26,263.00
Annual net cashflow -$5,263.00
Weekly net cashflow -$101.21
Cash on cash return
Annual net cashflow -5,263.00
Initial cash needed 13,500.00
cash on cash return -38.99%
As I said you can get that kind of deal anywhere without buying into a holiday unit situation. If you want the spreadsheet I use to calculate those figures let me know and I will email it to you. Some kind forumite sent it to me a while ago and I’ve found it invaluable.
Was just running thru your figures. It’s not a bad -ve geared property (almost neutral geared too) but being a holiday unit I believe it carries with it a higher risk. I have heard that holiday units are harder to sell than other types of property and of course you have the risk of it being affected by an off season and the inconvenience of irregular payments.
You can get the same type of -ve geared deal with a traditional property any time you want so why do it with an IP which has a higher risk attached?
Ivana I can give you some answers though most questions have more than one answer (life’s like that). I have bumbled my way thru a couple of purchases and I’m sure some of the more experience investors on this forum will add to what ever I write.
Q When do you go for a pre-approved loan?
A Before you even start looking at properties. See a mortgage broker (or 2). Be completely open and honest about your finances. If you conceal anything it will just put more risk on you. Before you do even this tho’ a financial adviser or accountant would be a good investment. Unless you are pretty good with your finances and know exactly how you stand financially right now, how much equity do you have, how much do you spend compared to what you earn, how much risk you are happy to take, and your current savings, loans, insurances, super are well structured.
Q Do you hire a solicitor or Conveyancer and what do they do exactly?
A Depends what state you are in. A solicitor can handle all the paper work, paying of fee’s and transfering of monies once you have put an offer on a house. You can also get them to look over the offer document before you sign. In some states you can use a “settlement agent”. I don’t know much about conveyancers – I have only used them to value a building and its fixtures/fittings for tax purposes.
Q Do you hand over a deposit cheque to the vendor before or after your loan is approved?
A Pre-approval is the best but if you don’t have that and you want to sign a offer document then ensure it has the clause “subject to finance approval” on it and take it to a solicitor/settlement agent before signing.
Q Can you pay stamp duty on the day you settle?
A Yes. This is one of the things the solicitor/settlement agent should handle for you.
Q Can you pay for legal fees on the day of settlement?
A Same as above.
Q Do you have someone survey the property before you actually buy it, or just after you sign the deposit cheque?
A Depends on what you mean by survey. If you are talking a building inspection report for faults or structural problems, once again make sure you have a clause “subject to satisfactory building inspection report” on the offer document before signing and handing over money. If you talking about having the building surveyed for tax purposes I do this after the settlement. BUT be aware of issues related to the depreciation rate allowable on some older buildings. Its a subject on it’s own and if you do a search of the forum I’m sure you will find some info on it.
Q Can someone out there be kind enough to list s simple step by step process of the whole transaction of buying a house. From making an offer to leasing it out!!!!!?
A That will take me some time as I said I’m not that experienced and I fear I will miss a step or two. I will wait to see if someone with more experience can help us both with that one.
My advice is to take it slow. There’s no rush. There will always be another property down the track so if you miss out on one because you take your time over getting everything right don’t worry. After you have done a few you will get faster and faster at it – so I’m told. Til then softly softly…
Let’s face it guys. It’s not the wrapping per se that is bad. Its when someone does it at a highly exaggerated profit margin such as adding a huge margin on the value of the home and/or charging an outrageous interest rate.
Consumer education (perhaps protection?) is needed to help people understand what deals NOT to sign up for.
Thanks Peter. I was thinking more towards getting inside information on what areas to invesigate in the first place but of course that is only part of the research needed hey.
OK so you only paid $184000 (169k + 15k) but if you do sell it for $230,000 don’t think you are making a $46000 profit. After you deduct stuff such as the fee’s you paid to buy it, the fee’s you will pay to sell it and the capital gains tax you will have to pay, you might find you haven’t made much money at all.
I’m not saying don’t sell. Just making sure you understand the true profit (or loss) if you should do so.
Also you are not just looking at a monthly loss of $814-$671. You are not taking into account all the costs of ownership. It would really help if you did a CoCR analysis on this property to show you the “real” cost to you anually. I haven’t got all your figures but on a rough calculation your percentage loss is huge.
Other things to consider: Have you got a full time job, are you on a high tax bracket and can you easily afford the extra cost this of this property? If so you might want to just hold on to this for negative gearing and capital gain purposes. Use your big tax cheque refund at the end of the year and the equity to buy your next cash positive IP.
Do your sums comprehensively. Otherwise you are just guessing what is the best move.
I do however sense that certain people are now going out of their way to attack others points of views…
You can say that again.
Haven’t been with the forum long, read heaps but contributed very little (can’t contribute knowledge you don’t have [])
I have been stunned at some of the things I have read here in the form of attacks often towards people who don’t agree with the more popular views. Bill is not the only one who has coped it that I have read, though some people did exceed themselves with him. It’s a shame that the attacked are leaving and not the attackers, who should be locked out.
After at first feeling wrapped (no pun intended) at finding such an informative and sharing forum I’m having my doubts now. []