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  • Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 107

    Hi jacqui,

    Unfortunately, its not as simple as choosing not to claim the expenses, and therefore not having to declare the income. from the point of view of the tax office you are using your home to produce income, and its taxable (& you are entitled to claim your expenses against that income).

    Declaring the rent isnt that big a deal, because your expenses will most probably be more than the rent, so you’d get a tax advantage from declaring it. The problem is that if/when you sell the property, you will not get the full main residence exemption for capital gains tax. So if your renting out 20% of your house, then 20% will be subject to capital gains tax when you sell. The tax department perceives this kind of arrangement to include shared common areas… that is, you might only be renting out one room, but you also loose the exemption for half all the common areas. So if there’s only two of you living there, then that percentage will be pretty close to 50%.

    There’s an example here:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36910.htm
    bottom of the page.

    That said… whilst of course I cant condone it, heaps of people do sublet a room to help with their mortgage and dont declare the income, its almost “unaustralian” not to. its probably not something to worry about if your being paid cash and your tennant is not collecting rent assistance from centrelink. (data matching)

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    hi shangrila

    the appropriate portion of the original purchase price will determine the cost base, not the value at the time of subdivision. (sorry terry)

    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/00191831.htm&page=70&H70
    second example (#58) half way down.

    The reason is that for the exemption to apply to an asset (for any period of its life) then the cgt event in question must also happen to the dwelling upon which the exemption relies (s 118-165) To put it another way, when the subdivided block is eventually sold, that particular cgt event will not also happen to your PPOR. see also (Taxation Determination TD 1999/73).

    re: tax office contradictions.. yes, it does happen all the time, thats just the charm of australian tax law! There’s other rules which apply to his situation which act in your favour. The reason why you still get it for the whole period on -one- of the properties is that your demolishing, constructing, and moving in, as soon as is practically possible, or in other words, your primary reason for doing it is to provide yourself a home.

    re: private ruling, probably not a good idea… its pretty time-consuming to prepare an application for one, so it will cost you a bunch in accounting fees. and I can guarantee the commissioner would not rule in your favour.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news… but I hope this clears up the confusion

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    hi andrew,

    the details of this situation are particularly important.. I’m curious as to why your friend was living ‘between’ the properties for this period of time.

    Regardless of what that situation is, there are three pertinent cgt “rules”:
    6 month ‘overlap’:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36888.htm

    PPOR 6 year extension (that infra mentioned):
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36887.htm

    “home first used to produce income” rule:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36910.htm&page=3&H3
    -but to use this rule you would have to have primarily lived in the first residence for the whole 12 months, and the new residence ‘secondarily’

    points to remember:
    1. he can claim the exemption on both properties for 6months, out of the 12 months he was living in both.
    2. he can extend the ppor exemption on the first place for up to 6 years, but in doing so you would loose the exemption on the new house.
    3. if the property was sold after 12 months of being a rental, and your friend lived in that property as a PPOR up until it became rented then the cost base for the purposes of calculating CGT would be market value at the time it was first rented. This is really important, and often results in substantial CGT savings.
    4. your friend really really needs to talk to an accountant. the three rules listed above can have complicated interactions, for example, use of rule 2 will exclude the use of rule 3, and almost certainly result in paying more CGT than your friend has to. rule 1 also has ramifications for rule 3. The specifics of this scenario have ramifications for all three rules, and your friend needs to decide how he is going to “represent” the situation. And as infra said.. someone needs to do the math and determine the best course of action.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    Hi Jane,

    I really do feel for you, 8 years is a long time to be looking over your shoulder. Rest assured that gifts are not taxable, and that you have not been engaged in tax evasion. You have quite rightly declared the interest earned on the money you received, and that is all that is required.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    yep thats right.. the one thing you didnt mention was that you have to live in the new house for 3 months before you sell it.
    so:
    A: original existing house
    B: first house you build before subdivision
    C: second house you build after subdivision

    buy > live in A > demolish A > build B > live in B > subdivide > start building C > sell B > live in C

    at face value that would work..

    but of course, there’s a number of potential issues which you need speak to an accountant about (do your activities constitute a business? … GST? … > 5 acres?) and.. you could make creative (and beneficial) use of the “home first used to produce income” rule – but thats a bit long winded to explain here.

    oh.. and I gave you the wrong link before… this page is particularly relevant:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/00191831.htm&page=84&H84

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    Zeus75 wrote:
    If you demolished the front house and built new then subdivided and retained the back block I guess you would also have to pay CGT when you finally sold the house on the back block too.

    Well… not necessarily. provided you werent claiming the main residence exemption (MRE) anywhere else, then you’d be able to claim the exemption on the entire property up to the point at which you subdivide (providing a < 4 year demolition & construction time). Then.. after subdivision you could claim the MRE on both blocks for that overlap period of 6 months. As long as you sell within 6 months of subdivision there'd be no CGT. You wouldnt necessarily have to have the new house finished at that point.. but you would have to start building and subsequently move in, as soon as practically possible (< 4 years from date of subdivision).

    That way you’d end up selling the first house CGT free, and (so far) there would be no period of ownership of the new subdivided block & house subject to CGT.

    Clear as mud? As you can see, minor differences in this scenario can have ramifications for CGT.

    The basic rules you have to work with:
    -you can only claim the MRE on two houses simultaneously for a maximum period of 6 months.
    -you can claim the MRE during demo / construction for up to 4 years, but can only claim the MRE simultaneously on another property for the afore mentioned 6 months during that period.
    -the MRE does not cover items which will eventually be sold seperately to your PPOR.

    This might be interesting:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36907.htm

    Hope that helps!

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    In short.. you wouldnt pay CGT on the sale of the front house. But if you ever sell the back house (which you finally move into) there will be CGT payable.. although I’m a little unclear on exactly which period of time it would be payable on.. either from original purchase until you move in, or from demolition of the original house, until you move in. probably the latter…

    The reason why you cannot claim the PPOR exemption on both is because the assets will end up being sold seperately…
    CCH master tax guide 2010:
    The main residence exemption does not apply to a CGT event that happens in relation to adjacent land or a garage, storeroom or other structure if that CGT event does not also happen in relation to the dwelling upon which the exemption relies (s 118-165). For example, land under a unit of accommodation will not benefit from the main residence exemption if the taxpayer sells that unit of accommodation separately from the land (Taxation Determination TD 1999/73). Similarly, where a vacant block of land is sold following the intentional demolition of a dwelling which was the owner’s main residence, this rule applies to deny the taxpayer a main residence exemption (ID 2003/248).

    Also.. if you did not demolish the existing house, and simply lived in it whilst building the other house, then you’d have a 6 month ‘overlap’ period on which you can claim the CGT exemption on both.
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/00191831.htm&page=81#P2751_286865

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    it all depends on what interest he is claiming against the rent on that property he moved out of.. he cannot claim interest on loans used to construct the new property which he is now living in, even if those loans are secured against his original PPOR.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    Re: What constitutes a business… as graham said, there’s no strict definition, and a little room to move.

    The criteria generally considered in determining whether an activity is a business are:
    -significant commercial activity
    -a purpose of acting in a commercial way
    -an intention to make a profit
    -a reasonable prospect of profitability
    -repetition or regularity of activity
    -reasonable size and scale
    -conformity with normal business practice
    -existence of a business plan
    -keeping of detailed business records
    -commercial sales of product
    -exercise of knowledge or skill (Taxation Ruling TR 97/11).

    Furthermore, the definition includes “an activity done in the form of a one-off venture in the nature of trade”. For Example, the ATO considers that buying and renovating a commercial retail store with the intention of reselling at a profit would probably constitute an enterprise. However, simply because a profit has been generated does not in itself mean that an enterprise exists. (see GST Ruling GSTR 2001/7)

    Based on all that, researching, buying, renovating, and selling, even one property could constitute a business, provided your primary intention is to turn a profit. However, given motivation you could argue that its not a business. As graham pointed out.. you could probably get away with that once or twice, but after three your starting to look more and more “repetitive and regular” That said.. 2 reno’s every year, 5 years in a row, looks pretty regular too.

    As terry pointed out… for residential properties you only have to pay GST on properties which are “new” (less than 5 years old, and has not been sold before) OR “extensively renovated” (see GST Ruling GSTR 2003/3) However, in mav’s proposed example, partially renovating existing houses, the sales will be considered to be “input taxed” – so no GST is payable and input tax credits for acquisitions relating to the sale are not available.

    So being considered a business would simply mean you can not claim the main residence exemption, and would not, in itself, mean that you have to pay GST.

    This is definitely a situation in which you need to explain to a qualified accountant exactly what your intentions are and listen to what they have to say.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    Dan42 wrote:
    If you have to pay CGT (say you bought interstate), make sure your accountant does BOTH calculations and chooses the best one. Sometimes the pro-rata calculation gives a better result. (If the house has had a sharp increase in recent years, for example).

    Sorry dan.. A pro rata calculation is not available in this case. if you fit the criteria for a “home first used to produce income rule” case, then you do not have a choice, market value at the time the property was first used to produce income MUST be used as the cost base. Its something I’ve argued with the tax office about in the past, and its mentioned in that link I gave… last sentence, first paragraph after the dot points.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    Hi kenny,
    your absolutely right, the sale will be a cgt event, but also exempt.

    Re: moving out whilst renovating, I simply meant that you didnt actually have to live there during the renovation for the main residence exemption to still apply. I should have been a little more concise, (now I look at my comment it really doesnt make much sense in relation to this situation) What I failed to point out is that if you dont actually live there subsequent to completing the renovation, you can still extend the main residence exemption.The three month thing is more relevant to situations where the property was not your main residence prior to renovating. My apologies.

    literature:
    extending main residence exemption:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36887.htm

    renovating prior to moving in:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36883.htm

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    hi sumnerstephen,

    there’s a couple of pertinent issues.

    I have to ask though… when you say “it will have been 12 months in the next couple of weeks” do you mean since you bought the property?

    Firstly, provided you satisfy the critera for PPOR exemption, you can extend the main residence exemption for up to six years after you move out. You can even do this if you move into another house which you own, but you would loose the PPOR on the new house, for that period.
    check this out:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36887.htm

    Secondly, If you chose not to extend the main residence exemption, then provided that you moved into the house as soon as practically possible after you bought it, (and a few other things) the “home first used to produce income rule” would allow you to use the market value of the property at the time you moved out as the cost base for your capital gain tax – so you would not pay CGT on the appreciation in value whilst you lived there. (make sure your accountant does not do a pro-rata calculation!!!)
    more info here:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36910.htm&page=3&H3

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    terryod wrote:
    I have a similar question, a friend of mine moved out of his principal place of residence and moved into a new house. He has been negative gearing the first property since moving out. I said this is not right and he maybget hit by the ATO if he gets audited. Can som on let me know what the go is here?

    Terryod: it all depends on what interest he is claiming against the rent on that property he moved out of.. he cannot claim interest on loans used to construct the new property which he is now living in, even if those loans are secured against his original PPOR.

    Benno: I thought “love and affection transfers” could only be conducted where no money changed hands? so at first glance, you wouldnt be able to use such a transfer to change your borrowing purposes around. I’m really not sure.. I’ll look into it.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    You are very welcome..

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    @mr5o1
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    Hi new2invest..

    Basically no.. sale of your ppor will not be a cgt event.

    That said.. there’s a few things which may mean your only eligible for a partial exemption – the period of time between purchasing and moving into the home may be relevant, in short you need to move in “as soon as is practically possible”. Also, if your running a business from home (even if its not your primary source of income)

    Also, you may move out whilst renovating, provided that you move back in for at least three months after the renovations are completed, and still be cgt exempt for the entire period of ownership.

    There’s some good info here:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36883.htm

    Hope that helps,

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    Hi House Call…

    House Call wrote:
    I have a new IP that a quantity surveyor has drawn up a depreciation schedule for.  Can this annual depreciation amount be used against other income?

    Depreciation on a rental property is treated the same as any other expense of a rental property… so including the depreciation will reduce profit/increase the loss… which can be offset against your other taxable income.

    House Call wrote:
    Also if the IP is in the name of a low income earner (eg my non-working spouse) can they 'save up' the depreciation (like capital losses) to use in a year that they earn more (and hence have more tax to pay)?

    In a way yes.. but its different to capital losses, and not as effective. You cant really choose -when- to claim depreciation, you either claim it per the schedule or you dont claim it. So… even in years where it isn’t going to be effective to claim it, it must still be applied to taxable income. That said.. if the taxable income is less than zero.. that minus figure will roll over to the following year (similar to capital losses).

    The following is difficult to explain without getting a little technical…
    So.. with other income (OI) of $20k, and a rental loss (RL) of $10k and depreciation (D) of $8k.. then claiming the depreciation provides no advantage.. because the tax on OI – RL is $0 anyway.
    if however OI=$10k, then OI – (RL + D) = -$8k so that minus figure will roll over into the following tax return, so there is some (future) benefit to claiming the depreciation.

    Considering the ramifications for CGT you have a tough decision to make… Whatever depreciation you claim over the years, will reduce the ‘cost base’ when your capital gain is calculated. Your effectively claiming small portions of your purchase price over the years, and thus wont be able to claim those portions against the sale price later. Usually the 50% discount will counter-act this, so that in the long run there will be a benefit to depreciating. In this case its hard to say.. because in some years you may not get any tax benefit from claiming the depreciation. Depends how likely you are to sell.. and what the other income will be in the intervening years.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    There is a transcript of the erdelyi case on austlii :
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/2007/1388.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=^Erdelyi

    I sent you a private message with details of the summers case… because I couldnt find it on austlii – and posting portions of my reference materials here would probably be copyright infringement.

    Both cases illustrate the importance of the other factors listed above, other than how long you lived there.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    mav86 wrote:
    12 months has nothing to do with this, it only relates to investment property to get a 50% discoutn on CGT?

    thats right & your welcome

    will see if I can find links to more info about those cases tomorrow!

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    It depends on a few different things, so the actual amounts deductible may vary slightly, but that said.. you will be able to depreciate the cost of the item over a number of years regardless of when it is installed.

    So whether its installed as part of the contract, or you pay for it seperately after construction is completed, you will be able to claim a tax deduction for it.. but you will not be able to claim it all in the year of expense. It needs to be depreciated over time (usually 8 years) and you claim a deduction for that depreciation. Best case scenario, you will be able to claim $1000 (pro-rata) in the first year, reducing to $0 over 8 years.

    If its installed during construction, then after construction is complete you can get a quantity surveyor (depro or some such) to go through, assign value’s to everything, determine everythings useful life, and calculate a 20 year schedule of the total depreciation in each year. The depreciation on your heating system will be included in the schedule you receive. Depending on the contract and the quantity surveyor.. they may only depreciate the cost of the heating unit itself over 8 years, and the cost of the ducting etcetera as part of the building over 20 years. In that case the deduction for the heating system itself would be marginally less in the first year.. but you will catch it up over time.

    Also (kindof unrelated but if I dont point this out.. someone else will) depreciating the item or the entire building will reduce/corrode your cost base for the purposes of capital gains tax.. so if you sell the property you may end up paying more in capital gains tax than you would have if you hadnt depreciated the building in the first place. but… if you do the math your still better off depreciating.

    Profile photo of Mr5o1Mr5o1
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    Well.. theres a lot to consider.

    Firstly, you only have to live in the property for 3 months, (12 months relates to the 50% Discount). I couldnt find any concise info about this to refer you to.. because I dont think there’s a specific “rule” about the minimum amount of time. Your really depending on precedent cases such as Erdelyi (2007 ATC 2214) where 3 months wasnt enough for an exemption and Summers (2008 ATC) where 4 months was enough for the exemption. The official legal speak lists a number of criteria need to be considered in determining whether your eligible for the exemption. Like:
    -the length of time you live there
    -does your family live there
    -have you moved in personal belongings
    -the address your mail is delivered to
    -your address on the electoral role
    -connection of phone services etcetera
    -your intention in living there

    I guess I’m trying to say (in a round-a-bout way) that its not ONLY about the length of time you live there… and you need to make sure that you tick the other boxes… if you sell after 3 months and 1 day, you really will be relying on the other criteria if the tax office investigates it.

    Also, if its your PPOR, then you will not have to pay GST on the sale price provided that you did not construct the original building, and that you did not renovate it extensively enough for it to be considered “practically a new construction”.

    I realise you were really asking about company or trust structures.. but I just thought I’d clear up the 12 month thing :)

    Hopefully this helps?

    EDIT:
    Oh, actually this:
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36883.htm
    says there is “no minimum amount of time” – but the amount of time WILL be considered along with the other points listed above (like in the erdelyi case).

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