Forum Replies Created
Dear oh dear TMA, you first ask :-
Jerzy, your example is what most brokers hate.
A reply that I felt needed clarification. You then ask:-
Where did you get the impression that my comments applied to your example
Which example are you referring to then? We must be talking about the same thing, as I have only stated one example.
What do you need me to say for you to understand that your comments were not as important to me as you seem to think.
Ummmmmmm, nothing ! Seriously, if my comments are unimportant, then why reply ?
Please dont take offence at my use of the word ‘stroppy’. I use this word in front of my children without a second thought. I certainly dont think that an adult would take offence to it. If I was into name calling though, I can assure you I could come up with something a lot more insulting, but thats not my style. In this type of format, I consider it cowardly.
Jerzy< are you just bored?
If I was, I’d have a lot more posts next to my name than I currently do.
Robert, I would like to re-iterate that I could not agree with you more about people who stuff others around. I know the type of person you are referring to as I have to deal with these types myself.
And yes, they also make me quite stroppy as well. [wink]Jenny, thanks for your comments. Although I havn’t posted many replies on this forum, I am an avid reader and have been for a couple of years. This will probably give him a big head, (hope he’s not reading this) but I quite like reading TMA’s post’s and often find myself agreeing with him whenever he has a vibrant discussion with some of the regular posters here.
TMA does make more sense here than most.Excuse me TMA, but my initial comments were in reply to a situation experienced by NATS12 that I found familiar.
Jerzy, I read your post just fine and my response was adequate.
No, you did not read my first post accurately, because you somehow assumed that I stuffed around a broker, when there wasn’t one involved. Sorry for feeling the need to reply to that misconception, but it had to be cleared up.
It seems you missed my comment about my post not being directed at you. I am over it.
That was not part of your initial response.
If you think my above post was emotive in any way, you do not know me very well.
Well No, I dont know you very well as we have never met, but I have read alot of your posts here, and have found them to be quite informative, if yes, a bit blunt.
I like to think of many of my posts as blunt and to the point.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are right.
It is also interesting you consider my comments as ‘stroppy’. Is this because you disagree with my comments so find the need for name calling?
No TMA, your comments were really lighthearted and friendly, but seriously though, theres nothing wrong with being stroppy. I get that way quite often.
But I dont know what you mean by name calling though.TMA, I was only pointing out that you did not read my post correctly to make a valid reply. No broker was harmed or put out during the making of my loan application, so rest easy my friend.
Jerzy, your example is what most brokers hate. They do a heap of work to get you a better deal elsewhere and you end up staying with the lender that has been ripping you off for years and the broker does not get paid.
Jerzy, my comments were not directed at you. I was merely outlining a scenario that brokers get upset with. Don’t take it personally.
Moi, take it personally ? Never ! Though you yourself are getting pretty emotive above. I would like to ask you one question though; Do you get this stroppy about doing a heap of work for your clients, knowing that the property transaction may fall through, perhaps due to your clients being outbid at auction ?
Sure, its not an ideal situation, but I would have thought that, that was a risk that makes up the job of being a broker.Still, rest assured that I am not anti-broker. The experience that I initially outlined, only reinforced in me the need of a good loan broker.
I am more than pleased with the bloke whose services I employ now. And no, I have not stuffed him around – at least I dont think I have. Though I did get him to line up a loan for me recently for an auction that I was out bid at. I hope he didn’t get too stroppy.FYI TMA, I did not go through a broker for this loan. I dealt with the local branch manager face to face.
Surely if you had read my post properly you would have noticed that I did not mention a broker being involved. Also, I did state that it was 8 years ago, and you would have to admit, being a broker yourself, that the finance industry was a very different animal back then. Chopping and changing loans at this time was a lot more difficult, therefore, my decision to shop around at this time was not taken lightly.
Overall, I managed to negotiate a better deal for myself at the time. Isn’t that what its all about ?
Hi Nats,
I went through this crap with my bank about 8 years ago.
I put it to them, that as a loyal customer of theirs for the previous 6 years, I found it unfair that loyalty was not being rewarded. Their response, more or less, was bad luck mate. I shopped around and found a better loan elsewhere. All of a sudden my bank came back and decided to match the offer, and put me on the ‘honeymoon’ rate at the time. I decided to stick with them, as it was alot more hassle to move than stay.
Anyway, 12 months later, the rate reverted back to normal, at which point I thought I’d try my luck again. Sure enough, they put me on the ‘honeymoon’ rate for a second time. 12 months later, and they came to the party a third time.
The 4th attempt was not as successful, and was put on the standard rate. Thats when I decided to shop around, and eventually moved on.
Basically, give it a go. If you threaten to go and they let you, then they weren’t serious about you anyway. Thats business, and it would be their loss. It would be your loss if you could get a better offer and did nothing about it.Let us know how you go.[party]
Hi Lisa,
Your story sounds very familiar to an experience I had recently which I would like to share. I went to an auction as well, in the hope of securing a rundown house on a great block with waterviews in Sydney. Being rundown, the plan was to clean it up, rent it out for a couple of years, then demolish and build. After all my due diligence I estimated that to me, it was worth around the 520k mark. This was purely based on land value. I decided to have a valuation done prior to auction, which came in at 500k for land value and 580k including the rundown house. The house was quite solid and well built, just untidy and very dated.
Anyway, I’m at the auction and the bidding starts in the high 400’s, with about 6 bidders. Once the figure got to about the 520k mark, I was out, but so was everyone else, except 2 bidders. After the auction, I overheard one of the unsuccessful bidders who dropped out at the low 500k mark, saying something along the lines of “You’ve still got to spend 250k to put a new house on the block, and then you start to over-capitalise beyond the low 500’s”. This was exactly what my DD told me as well, which made me feel, just like yourself, on top of the world. This was a great block, and one I would have loved to live at, but it was not to be.
As for the property itself, remember my valuation came in at $580,000. The property was sold at auction for $580,500. I will definitely have to keep in contact with this valuer in future.
Spot On Resi !
100% spot On.
I havn’t tried it myself, but I heard coca cola works well.
Considering what it does to your teeth, I wouldn’t be surprised.
OSienna, Its you who should settle down.
Unlike yourself, I can see Jeff’s point clearly, and can appreciate his contribution.
What have you done in this post to contribute, other than to dispute another persons opinion ?
You seem to think that Jeff has no right to post an opinion about a particular author, despite the fact that he has read a previous book of his. How could you not see the relevence in Jeff’s opinion ?Dave7 has started a good post, and brought to my attention, an author I had not heard of before. Jeff has given a valuable opionion about this same authors previous work, which is clearly relevent, and has no doubt proved helpful to myself, Dave7, and others in this forum. All you have done is dispute anothers opinion, despite not having read any book by the author.
It’s forumites such as yourself, who not only contribute nothing in these forums, but also happen to take something away from others who do have something to give, by way of advice or opinion.
Some people just dont get it.[angry2]
Originally posted by foundation:Originally posted by Jerzy Balowski:Foundation, would you like to elaborate ? Did the above investors do their due diligence at the time ? Seeing that I dont have a clue about what you are refering to above, I wont even try to speculate.
If you don’t have a clue what I’m talking about, I would suggest that you yourself have not ‘done your due dilligence’ in relation to property investing.
I dont claim to know everything about everything(never have), so please (once again) enlighten me on the fable of the Japanese and San Francicscans. This isn’t another “sucker born every minute story” is it ? I’m certain that I’m not the only one who is unfamiliar with what you are on about. So please share with all of us.
Name One ! Are you saying that people could not sell their houses, or are you saying that they actually lost 50% of their value, which is what you are implying by quoting me ? Of course, the property market in some regions would have been flat for a very long time, but to have lost half their value ? I’m sure in extreme cases, it has happened, which is why I did write “Virtually unheard of in real estate”, but I was trying to compare blue-chip shares with blue-chip real estate, whilst you seem to be refering to the other end of the property market. You’re not even comparing Apples with Oranges, but Apples with carrots.Sure, some sectors fare better than others in a falling market. Unfortunately most ‘investors’ on this site are looking for cashflow positive properties and where are these found? In small country towns. These same houses were very difficult to shift for many years during the 90s, and those who really needed to sell found that they needed to drop their asking prices – yes, sometimes by 50%.
At the same time, ‘blue-chip’ real estate was also in the dolrums. Let’s take Melbourne for example. In 1989 the median house price was $183,652, in 1996 it was $182,261 (REIV). Sure, that looks like a slight drop in nominal terms, but in real terms it is a drop of around 24.4% (ABS CPI)! During this time, some suburbs actually increased in nominal value, but plenty fared worse, and the more ‘diverse’ the property investments, the closer to that median of 24.4% the loss.When you start quoting medians, and CPI figures, and all sorts of statistics, you can make them prove (almost) anything. I was simply stating my own experience in straight forward dollar terms. Nothing more nothing less, and I’m not saying that this is the only way of making such a comparison, just a different way. This has somehow offended you to the point that you had to have a go at me. Funny how this has all started from me being curious about someone stating that AMP had a CG of 132%, and being concerned enough about others in this forum to at least question that figure. Perhaps I should refrain from doing so.
I have explicitely stated my own experience with the share market, and compared it in fairly generalised terms with the real estate market over the same period to give everyone a different perspective, which is what these forums are all about. How this can be labelled ignorant and seriously misinformed, is beyond me. If you feel the need to dispute this, at least back your comments up with relevent figures, as I have, and save the vitriol for the cat.Yes, you explicitly stated your own experience, but you didn’t explicitly state that it was just your own experience.Huh ?
For what it’s worth, I agree that you can make money buying houses. I have done so myself, but I sold at what I believed was the peak of the market and put a large part of my profit into the undervalued ASX. I have done well from this, and will be moving to the ‘next big thing’ rather soon. Why settle for an average 1.9% above inflation (over the last 30 years, bearing in mind this includes the current bubble!) from property investing or 7% for Australian Shares when with very little effort you can do much better?My original point was that the sharemarket is more volatile than real estate NOT that it is better or worse ! The greater the risk, the greater the reward (WooHoo) and losses(Doh). This may seem obvious to some but not so obvious to others.I dont think I could be anymore clearer. If that has insulted your intelligence, foundation, then that was not the intention. If me hilighting this to others in this forum has upset you, then you clearly have a problem with anyone whose opinion differs from yours. I dont know you, but by your own admission you feel the need to apologise for always seeming to be negative. Says it all really.
Apologies to everyone else in this forum, for allowing this post to get bogged down. It certainly was not my intention.
Originally posted by Chipper:Originally posted by Jerzy Balowski:imagine your property, worth $318,000 in 2000, and holding on to that property, only for it to be worth $150,000 today.
This scenario is virtually unheard of in real estate, including all the two-tier marketing horror stories, yet it is common in the share market.
welli used to be like you once. i was brainwashed to thinking that property was the be all and end all of investing.
your comment reminded me that my sister bought an investment property on the gold coast and even after 5 years she couldnt sell it for any more than she paid for it.
ok, so thats nt as bad as the example you gave, but once you apply the effect of inflation, all her associated costs like council rates, agents fees, stamp duty, repairs and insurance she lost big time on it (and also went 6 months without a tenant a few times in those 5 odd years).
it struck me that you dont have to worry about any of those things when you own shares.
No worries Chipper. Sorry to hear about your sisters predicament. I can understand your apprehension with real estate, after this type of experience so close to home, and why you would be swayed towards the sharemarket.
I wouldn’t say that I have been brainwashed into thinking property is better than the sharemarket, as I have tried both, and found real estate to be far more lucrative. Horses for courses !
Good luck in your venture.
“Virtually unheard of in real estate”? Try telling that to the Japanese who invested in property prior to 1991 or the San Franciscans or Londoners who invested in 1989!
Foundation, would you like to elaborate ? Did the above investors do their due diligence at the time ? Seeing that I dont have a clue about what you are refering to above, I wont even try to speculate.
Or for that matter to anybody who tried to sell houses in regional Vic/NSW/Qld in the mid 1990s.
Name One ! Are you saying that people could not sell their houses, or are you saying that they actually lost 50% of their value, which is what you are implying by quoting me ? Of course, the property market in some regions would have been flat for a very long time, but to have lost half their value ? I’m sure in extreme cases, it has happened, which is why I did write “Virtually unheard of in real estate”, but I was trying to compare blue-chip shares with blue-chip real estate, whilst you seem to be refering to the other end of the property market. You’re not even comparing Apples with Oranges, but Apples with carrots.
I apologise if I always seem negative, but there are some truly ignorant people on this forum who are happy to share their seriously misinformed thoughts.
I have explicitely stated my own experience with the share market, and compared it in fairly generalised terms with the real estate market over the same period to give everyone a different perspective, which is what these forums are all about. How this can be labelled ignorant and seriously misinformed, is beyond me. If you feel the need to dispute this, at least back your comments up with relevent figures, as I have, and save the vitriol for the cat.
Chipper,
I would be very wary of any quote that states that AMP has risen 132% over any period of time.
I had unloaded my AMP shares 5 years ago for $15.90. Now they are around the $7.50 mark. Multiply those figures by 20,000 and imagine your property, worth $318,000 in 2000, and holding on to that property, only for it to be worth $150,000 today.
This scenario is virtually unheard of in real estate, including all the two-tier marketing horror stories, yet it is common in the share market.
At around the same time (2000), NewsCorp shares were valued at around $28.00, only to fall down to a low of $8.00 since then, and recovering now to the low $20’s. Pretty poor for a blue chip investment !
Also, CBA shares have been hovering around the high $20-low $30 mark in the same time, so I cant see how anyone can claim a CG of 218%, unless of course they are stating those figures since the CBA was actually listed on the stock market, well over 10 years ago.
The most positive thing that I can say about my experiences in share investing, is that it gave me a great appreciation for real estate. So, by all means give it a go – I did ! But treat it more like gambling rather than investing, and only put in what you are prepared to lose. I did, and I did.
Ahhhh Comrade Ruggers, you old poodle you.
I’m not really a Lefty, just anti extreme Right Wing. Straight down the centre, if you like. But thats ok, I’m cool with Lefty, when compared to Mussollini.
In fact, I could just as easily disagree with a bleeding heart trotskyite, if there were any around. Its just that they dont take the bait so aggresively. Kind of like a toadfish. You dont really know you’ve hooked one until you reel one in and see it. If it were up to them, we’d all be made to ride bicycles, and just to make it completely conformist, would not even give us a choice of colour.Now for the deadly serious matter of trying to locate, what I have deemed, more rare than a cash flow positive property in the Sydney metropolitan area.
On my many routine excursions to selected bottle shops for my fix of Chardonnay –
NO, WAIT,
I mean VB, I had noticed an absence of Bundy Black on the shelves. When I had finally finished my most recent duty free bottle, courtesy of a mate returning from Bali, I started searching more diligently, but could only find this new product called Bundaberg Distillers No 3. This one comes with a silver label instead, and is very smooth as well, but just not the real deal.Another funny story. Only last weekend, I was down the south coast of NSW on a holiday, and managed to find a bottle of Black at an Ulladulla bottle shop. It was the last bottle on the shelf and hidden up the back. When I asked the bloke at the counter if he had any more, his response was –
“ I didnt know Bundy Rum came in a black label “
Needless to say, this bottle, VAT 1994, is now in my possession, but am very reluctant to crack it open until I am assured of a replacement.I dont suppose you could give out any advice as to where to look ? I mean, its not like I’m asking where I could find any property that meets the 11 second solution.
Ted, Ted, Ted
If only you could just go to a shop and buy some credibility. You’d then have some hope.
Firstly, What does the link to that newspaper article from The Australian, have to do with our supposed present working relationship with Indonesia ? The same Indonesia, by the way, that you suggest in an earlier post we aim a nuke at.
Was I supposed to read that and somehow be transformed into a neo-con such as yourself. Im afraid that you will have to do a little bit more than just quote some irrelevent tabloid rubbish, to convince me that our present relationship with Indonesia is as good as its ever been. Far from it, our efforts in Timor’s independance struggle, whilst I totally agree with, DO NOT strengthen our position (whatever our position is, that you are alluding to). Only the most dimwitted would think that somehow our involvement, however noble, would endear us to the Indonesian people. Think for a moment, what we would do if Indonesia took on a similar role in a struggle for independance, for example, in the Torres Strait islands. Think long and hard, what your reaction would be.
As you quote our Federal Police and other agencies – other being, I assume DFAT, ONA, ASIO and the like. I would have thought their recent record of achievment would not be something to gloat about.
Lets look at the Fed Police. Mick Keelty for all his honesty in admitting that we have become a bigger terrorist target because of our involvement in Iraq, gets severly nobbled by your hero for daring to state the obvious. This wasnt just a disagreement, this was a serious rebuke for the head of our Feds. No fault of Keelty’s or the Feds, who deserve praise for their efforts in Bali. But their credibility, because of Howard has been damaged.
DFAT – What a pathetic dept under Lord Fishnet Downer they have become. All the excuses under the sun could not wash the blood of the Bali victims from their hands. There is still no viable explanation, as to why the US could declare a terrorist warning amongst its nationals yet DFAT could not. There were plenty of Yanks there, yet the death toll reads 88 Australians, 7 US killed.
ONA and ASIO- WMD, SIEVX, Children Overboard, does this need any more explanation, except that any dissenters amongst their ranks ie. Andrew Wilkie, Mike Scrafton will not have their evidence disproved. Instead, their character will be dragged through the dirt. How Noble !Finally, This may come as a shock to someone who mixes with the hoi poloi such as yourself, but not all of us commoners have such an acquired taste for Chardonnay. I wouldn’t know a Bordeaux from a Claret. Then again, I’m sure a Tory Toff such as yourself would have an extensive wine cellar.
Me ? I’m quite partial to Bundy Black Label Rum. Its almost impossible to find as I think its discontinued, but Im sure with your connections with the Liberal Party Elites you could swing something my way. What do ya reckon Teddy.[/quote]
Was a good idea then to stop the reckless culling of crocodiles then but 220 million at once, I dont think so
Bob Brown would let them all in though..Warmongering pfffft Australia has got better working relations with Indonesia post Bali/ Jakarta bombings and Timor. The bowing down/ foreign relations work done by Keating/Beazley previously had no affect once Timor came around.
Our stance on Timor (with US help) actually strengthened our position in the area.( dont forget it was the labors illustrious leader Gough Whitlam that allowed the annex of Timor).
kp the ramifications I am thinking off relates to issues of instability in Indonesian provinces particulary West Papua and also further joint intelligence cooperation against JI. So how hardline will this former General be? or will he just be to busy trying to keep things together in Indonesia central then the outer areas.
The best thing about Howard is that he isnt a fence sitter ….
[/quote]
Dear oh dear oh dear Super?Ted
<editted personal attack – Derek>
You state that Australia has got better working relations with Indonesia since Bali.
Really ? Thats a good one.
Is that why Howard could not get Megawati to return his calls, immediately after the tragedy had occurred ? Doesnt sound like a good relationship to me. Its safe to say that things have not improved markedly since then, what with Howards electorally popular, but diplomatically pathetic comments about us being the deputy sherriff, and his little big man stance on pre-emptive strikes on foreign territory. Its strange, but I dont think that we were ever the target of terrorist threats as we are now, when Keating and Beazley were supposedly bowing down as you say (whatever that means?).
Whats more, even though Whitlam condoned the annexation of East Timor by Indonesia prior to invasion, along with US President Ford, he was fully supported by the opposition of the day, which included your hero Johnny Dubya. Either way, as it was a Portuguese colony, I would have thought that they would shoulder a large proportion of the blame for leaving them high and dry.
You say
“The best thing about Howard is that he isnt a fence sitter ….”
Its a bit hard to sit on the fence when you keep falling off it because nobody told him anything.
<Editted personal attack – Derek. By all means debate the topic but leave the personal comments out>
Who are Port Adelaide ?
Originally posted by SuperTed:Imagine Latham as Prime minister (speaking on the International stage for us and constantly backpeddlling when put on the spot).
Crean as Treasurer (the ALP’s first real budget announcement several months ago was already 1 billion short when it was financed properly, Costello found the stuff up for them).
Beasley as Defence minister again…put us down for another fleet of those Collins subs.
I agree rates will go up under either parties but higher under labor (higher inflation).
I love it when LAtham says all those warm fuzzy things he is going to do…then i think ummmmmmmm where is the money comming from (taxes)
Has there been a labor goverment that has actually left the country in a btter financial state then when it took over office from the liberal party??
Jeez Teddy,
Surely you can’t believe the state of economy was worse when Keating handed government over in 1996, than when Johnny, as treasurer, handed it over in 1983 ??
Try to think back if you can, when Johnny Dubya Howard was still in nappies under Fraser – Inflation at 15%, unemployment 12%, negative economic growth ie. recession when Labor came to power in 1983. 13 years later, Johnny Dubya inherits an economy that was already growing for 4 years !!!
The first time around, Howard completely dithered about as treasurer and screwed the economy, yet was still given the keys to the treasury 13 years later. Go figure.
Another great lie these tory monkeys go on about is the 8 billion dollar Beazley black hole, left to them in 1996. Howard left office in 1983 with a 9 billion dollar deficit. And that is in 1983 dollars as well !!!
As for the Collins Class submarines, perhaps we can use them to transport our brand new, second hand, Abrams tanks that we are about to take delivery of, because our amphibious landing craft sure as hell can’t handle them. Thank you very much Robert Hill !! Then again, there’s always Star Wars that Robert Hill has signed us up for. That will stop those nasty terrorists(boat people). Another case of money well spent ??
Latham does say a lot of warm and fuzzy things.
But I dont hear anyone calling them lies.
As for ‘where is the money coming from’ (add winey voice), how about we start with scrapping the FHOG (I never needed it when I bought my first house when interest rates were 15% – I survived), the $600 payment to anyone with an offspring (I’ve got 2 – I can survive without it), and the $1300 baby bonus (do people really need a bribe to GET IT ON). Who said the Labor party was champion of the handouts ?As for me, I’d rather a government that makes a mistake, and is honest about it, rather than one that makes a mistake, and will stop at nothing, to cover the lies up. Note the insidious treatment that people, such as John Valder, Andrew Wilkie, Mike Scrafton, Mick Keelty, and the 43 Eminent Australians, have been dished out.
We know which one Howard belongs to, Latham could not be any worse.
Wallflower,
You’ll find that on the general political scale, it is the Tories, led by Honest John Howard, as the party which espouses the rhetoric within Mein Kampf (spelt correctly).
Mark Latham would prefer little kiddies read something by Trotsky or Karl Marx. No relation to Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo or Gummo.
Bob Brown would let them all in though..
