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  • Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 1,680

    This is the way you should structure the deal.

    The property. 

    I would buy the property outright and lease it to the business. No share splits,complicated ownership setups etc etc. Keep it real simple. If they want to own a 1/3 or whatever they have to divy up. None of this I'll pay my contribution in payments from the business rubbish.

    Or alternative you buy into the business and then the business buys the property. The way they're trying to set up is more complicated than my mothers knitting.

    The Business.

    There's lots of way to contribute to a business other than money. Sweat equity, skill etc are appropriate components that can be valued. 

    I have a friend who started the Loaded Hog in NZ many years ago along with 2 others. A friend and another person who was a master brewer. My friend put up 80% of the capital his friend 20% and the brewer put up his expertise. They had a an equitable percentage split which was close to equal 1/3's.

    The first year they paid themselves $30k each. By the end of the first year they not only paid themselves but paid their start up costs as well. Friend is semi retired now and a multi millionaire from that one business that multiplied into several outlets around the country. 

    In a business startup everyone puts something into the hat. That contribution is valued as a percentage of the business. If it's sweat equity you work at a specified valued rate and that goes into the business. So you might do 50 hrs per week at $80/hr. The contribution has to be valued at or near what it would cost you to hire a person for that position. Expertise is a little different. That's very hard to value but a brewer for example needs not only technical skill that could be hired but creative skill that may be hard to find. They're also a key strategic individual.

    Usually partners will simply accept that one individuals skill is indispensable in a start up business so value that intangible component as an equal share and still pay a retainer out of earnings. That retainer might be discounted slightly during the start up phase and hit full payment once you reach certain milestones.

    In deals like this everyone and especially key personnel have to make legally binding commitments to the business for minimum periods of time. So if the brewer decide to leave because of a dispute he would have to stay until a replacement was found and a handover completed or other wise be exposed to damages if the business suffered.

    If someone wants to sell out you need a agreed to process to complete that. 

    The problems I have with this deal is your mates, while experienced in running restaurants, don't seem to have a lot of knowledge or skill in setting up a multi owner business and know nothing about brewing. I also have problems with them in terms of they already have businesses that will take their time and attention. Startups require huge amounts of time and effort to get off the ground and build a customer base large enough to become self sustainable. Usually 3 – 5 years. Micro breweries were new 20 years ago and the market was open to innovative brewers. Not today. The market is more sophisticated and the competition is fairly robust.

    My friend made a fortune because he was first cab off the rank, had unbelievable luck and produced a highly desirable product. I would not bet the house on this and I would want some pretty tangible guarantees, guidelines, legal agreements and personal commitments before I even considered signing on to this.

    From your brief description above neither of your friends appears to bring much to the party at all. I'm left wondering what the attraction is if any.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
    Join Date: 2012
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    Beware of the MSM hype and absolute lies re anything shale. If you listen to the actual experts in the field they're singing a completely different tune.

    http://oilprice.com/Finance/investing-and-trading-reports/US-Shale-Gas-Supplies-wont-Last-Ten-Years-An-Interview-with-Bill-Powers.html#

    http://oilprice.com/Interviews/Shale-Gas-Will-be-the-Next-Bubble-to-Pop-An-Interview-with-Arthur-Berman.html

    http://oilprice.com/Interviews/High-Risk-Investing-The-New-Trend-in-Energy-Interview-with-Andrew-McCarthy.html

    The trick is understanding the real story and figuring out how to take advantage of it. 

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    I wouldn't get too excited by one little mine and what it may mean for coal resources on the east coast. To put things in perspective Aus is the 4th largest exporter but that only comes up to 6.7% of global production. Aus consumes 54% of its own production which is likely to diminish as gas replaces coal fired power generation.

    China proposes to triple power generation over the next 2 decades and up its coal demand by something like a billion tonnes per annum over that time. But then we have Russia which is looking to increase its exports to China by 5X over the next decade. The US is also expected to see its coal exports rise as well as shale gas continues to expand. China and Mongolia combined have huge coal reserves but to complicate the picture even more China is making concerted efforts to reduce its reliance on fossil fuels like coal. It has its own shale gas strategy that it is developing.

    India has lots of coal but no infrastructure to capitalise on it. It is easier to import and land it near where it is needed than mine its own and tranship it. It also has a cost barrier to energy production. While it would like and does need to increase its energy output ability unfortunately it doesn't have the local markets with the ability to pay the true cost of production. Their desire to industrialise is being hampered by this cost barrier and I don't expect to see India grow faster than a few %pa over the next decade at least.

    The upshot so to speak is one of mixed messages from the market but I tend to see the next decade as difficult for the miners as demand falters and alternatives like gas and shale gas push into the market. Coal has to stay cheap to compete so I don't see another mining boom anytime soon. Not in my lifetime anyway.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Go to this thread

    https://www.propertyinvesting.com/forums/finance/4346478

    plenty of spreadsheet tools you can play with there from the simple to the complex.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Heritage Trusts combined with local authority oversight is probably the most painful experience you're ever likely to encounter. Feel free to slit your wrists now.

    Personally wouldn't go near anything that is, or likely to be in the future, Heritage listed. But if your the masochistic type then a heritage consultant is an absolute must and one familiar with dealing with the personalities associated with your area. He/she'll be invaluable in guiding you through the tortuous labyrinth of heritage renovation. 

    Literally everything associated with a Heritage building requires permission before you are let loose to do your thing. That includes, grounds, out buildings, plants trees etc and absolutely everything internal right down to light bulbs.

    If the building has very specialised work like frescoes, carvings, tile mosaics, plaster moldings etc then be prepared for some quite traumatic damage to your wallet. Little of which you will ever recover should you sell at some future date.

    Have fun.

    Try Googling:  renovating heritage homes

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    DWolfe wrote:

    I'm looking forward to Steve's eBook. Should be good, but geez I really do prefer a book with paper pages!

    D

    There's a new machine out called a printer ;-)

    I've just bought one of these (got it cheap.. Harvey Norman end of stock sell out) but apparently it's not wireless… go figure. I'll upgrade next year.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    You're taxed in your country of primary residence which I assume is Aus. You need a local accountant with NZ knowledge AND property expertise.

    Note there is no CGT in NZ

    READ THIS PAGE BELOW

    Overseas tax residents with New Zealand interests

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Not personally. You might try a specific request in the Help Needed forum or simply ring around and ask a few questions of accountants. The NZ tax thing is not over complicated. I would tend to focus on an accountant with property investing knowledge/know how as priority. 

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    The idea that we are reducing debt and deleveraging is somewhat of a myth accept for businesses that have strengthened their balance sheets since the GFC.

    Australia has two significant problems namely; the amount of debt owed to foreigners and that a significant portion of that debt is household debt. A substantial devaluing of our currency worsens that debt profile significantly. We are vulnerable to an external financial shock to a degree most are unaware of. Given that something like 60% of foreign debt is tied up in mortgages (housing) that suggests that the property market carries substantial risk until this mess is sorted out. 

    Personally I think our chances of this being resolved without a collapse of some sort are slim to none.

    According to the RBA’s most recent statistics, 84% of the “public” debts being accrued by Green-Labor are owed to “Non-residents”.

    $187.6 billion, out of a total $223.3 billion, at end December 2011.

    A new all-time record level of indebtedness to foreigners:

    As has been noted previously, it is also important to realise that Australia’s NFD is predominantly owed by financial institutions (in excess of 70%). Other businesses account for over 20%, and the government debt represents less than 10% of the total. In fact, government debt as a percentage of NFD declined significantly between 1996 and 2007 (although it did increase as a result of the need to fund significant budget deficits between 2008 and 2011).

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Hyperinflation only destroys local debt not debt owed externally. It also destroys the debtor if the debtors income/assets remains at pre hyperinflationary levels which they usually do.

    So for example debt owed internationally still remains because it is valued in the lenders currency which will have moved against any hyperinflationary currency.

    From the start of GFC, almost 5 years have passed. 5 at say 3% inflation, we devaluate the debt already by some 12%?

    The debt has only deflated if your income has inflated. Inflation in prices (costs) and not in income is of no value. Inflation only affects part of your income relative to debt. So if 30% of your income goes to debt servicing but 64% is spent on things that have appreciated then you are not necessarily any better off especially if inflation is or has outpaced your income.

    Post WW1 Germany was required to pay reparations in gold. Once its gold reserves were depleted it entered an inflationary spiral that led to a collapse in confidence in its currency. That resulted in the birth of Nazi Germany. Hitler's so called economic  miracle was an illusion and by 1939 Germany was about to default on its loans. To avert economic collapse Hitler invaded Poland and immediately went  after its gold reserves. Subsequent invasions where not driven by military imperatives but a need to acquire the gold reserves of neighboring countries. Norway was able to remove its gold reserves to England for safe keeping for the duration of the war.

    Hope that makes cents… I'm on me 6th burbon..

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Agree but the US is beyond that. If they cut all discretionary spending they sill couldn't balance their budget.

    This is what US total debt looks like. This does not include future liabilities like aged care, medicare/medicaide, pensions etc.

    The US is trapped in a debt hole so big it can't climb out of it. Their solution is to dig the hole deeper until they disappear.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Wife was in Rome last year with our daughter-in-law (Maltese), her mum and my wife's friend. Rome is horrendously expensive as is much of Europe. If your going with your wife she'll love the clothing stores. The quality of their clothing makes ours look like rags. And according to the wife very reasonably priced given the quality. 

    The downside is that Rome retailing is struggling;

    AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE

    Wednesday 15 August 2012

    “The sales have not gone well,” said clothes shop manager Fabio Anticoli. While the eternal city usually draws tourists from all over the world who spend their cash on Italian designs, “this year, it’s an impoverished tourism.” The sales have gone “very badly” compared with 2011 according to the shopkeepers’ association Confesercenti, which reports a 20 percent drop in turnover in central Rome, a figure that rises to 40 percent in outer suburbs.

    http://www.arabnews.com/crisis-hit-rome-shops-await-tourists-amid-closures

    Cold weather that time of year should be interesting….. brrrrr!

    Anyway have a good trip. I'll be interesting to hear your impressions when you get back.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Rentals have jumped to 84… ouch!

    For Sale are slightly down at 247. That's still historically high but its still holding. It'll be interesting to see how the increasing rental availability will pressure the For Sale properties. 

    I'm getting anecdotal evidence that businesses are starting to struggle. Caterpillar (Westrac) apparently is putting reps on the road to chase maintenance work. That dovetails with direct info that machinery and equipment is being parked up as contracts complete or are canned. 

    We just had a big hut move from Geraldton to Onslow canned after we got started. Trucks where turned around at Carnarvon and sent back. What a balls up that's turning into. The excuse was the receiver had condemned the huts and wouldn't accept them.

    We're chasing work with another mob to demob and shift a major contractor leaving Port Hedland. Things are slowing faster than I anticipated. It'll be interesting to see if any panic sets in over the next few months.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    DWolfe wrote:
    Hope it gets fixed soon.

    Chance would be a fine thing. How log's this site been operational now? 

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Terryw wrote:
    I don't know what that means? I have been posting here 10 years +. These badges are a bit of a wank if you ask me.

    ROFL… mate that one had me in fits. Totally agree. I thought I left stars, stamps and that rubbish at primary school.Suits the narcissist I suppose.

    All this rubbish down the sidelines absoluty $#@! me off. These pages are the slowest clunkiest pages on the entire net and I've got a fast connection. I can pull down media at between 600k – 1MB (and that's bytes not bits). Some days I wonder why I even bother here. The old site might have been an ugly old girl but it worked seamlessly.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    The starting point of the lecture is about the single most important economic shift in the second half of the 20th century in the United States. And that is that millions of mothers have been poured into the pool of the full time work force.

    Distinguished law scholar Elizabeth Warren teaches contract law, bankruptcy, and commercial law at Harvard Law School.

    She is an outspoken critic of America’s credit economy, which she has linked to the continuing rise in bankruptcy among the middle-class.

    In this lecture Elizabeth Warren is basically talking about “higher risks, lower rewards and a shrinking safety net,” through historical data analysis and interpretation.

    The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class (57:38)

    March 8 2007

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Both Aus and NZ have been down this path several times (with LPG) and usually with subsidies to encourage conversion. Seems to be a fad thing depending on the price of fuel.

    They already run trucks on a diesel gas mix that improves efficiency. They even installed their own gas filling points to facilitate it in the outback. Mitchell's have been doing it since 2009. Yanks are a bit behind the times.

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Well Bardon if Europe's anything to go by we may not have long to wait. Like I was telling JP, I can't find good news anywhere. Quite the contrary I'm afraid.

    Logistics in WA just stopped as of late. We're all scratching our heads wondering what just happened after a fairly steady few months. It'll be wait and see over the next week or 2. OK for us we're committed for the next 3 – 4 weeks but pricing is weak and margins are being squeezed.

    Removal Co's are seeing a reverse trend as staff are moved back to Perth. Not huge but a change in trend. Royal Wolf is demobing containers from all over WA back to base storage. Storage is a problem actually. Same story with equipment rental mobs.

    Interesting times.

Viewing 20 posts - 1,141 through 1,160 (of 1,635 total)