"retirement at 65 has a corresponding death age of 67. These numbers are averages based on their extensive workforces from over the years."
Nup. This number doesn't make sense. If a person aged 65 retires, their average life expectancy cannot be 2 years. That would mean that most people would die in less than 2 years.
Say there are 10 people retiring at 65. If 2 of them live 5 years, the others would have a life expectancy of just one year! If one lives for 10 years and one lives for 5 years, the others would have a life expectancy of 6 months.
I don’t buy it. I’d love a link to the report though, so I can disprove it thoroughly!
Here's another (scientific) report. Better put that retirement on hold!!!
Quote:
Age at retirement and long term survival of an industrial population: prospective cohort study
Shan P Tsai, manager, epidemiology1, Judy K Wendt, senior epidemiologist1, Robin P Donnelly, director, health services1, Geert de Jong, senior health adviser2, Farah S Ahmed, epidemiology research associate1 Correspondence to: S P Tsai [email protected]
Objective To assess whether early retirement is associated with better survival.
Design Long term prospective cohort study.
Setting Petroleum and petrochemical industry, United States.
Subjects Past employees of Shell Oil who retired at ages 55, 60, and 65 between 1 January 1973 and 31 December 2003.
Main outcome measure Hazard ratio of death adjusted for sex, year of entry to study, and socioeconomic status.
Results Subjects who retired earlyat 55 and who were still alive at 65 had a significantly higher mortality than those who retired at 65 (hazard ratio 1.37, 95% confidence interval 1.09 to 1.73). Mortality was also significantly higher for subjects in the first 10 years after retirement at 55 compared with those who continued working (1.89, 1.58 to 2.27). After adjustment, mortality was similar between those who retired at 60 and those who retired at 65 (1.06, 0.92 to 1.22). Mortality did not differ for the first five years after retirement at 60 compared with continuing work at 60 (1.04, 0.82 to 1.31).
There is no guarantee that money "borrowed" by the govt from our funds will ever be put back. I worry that when it comes our turn to retire and look to draw out our deposits there won't be anything to withdraw.
The government has no capacity to use superannuation funds, save for the future fund.
Quote:
Share markets crash. Think Emron, Worldcom, dot bomb, tech wrecks. Property markets don't "crash" – never have. They have corrections which are slow and well publicised. You will never wake up in the morning and read the paper and find out your property is worth zero.
Nobody has ever woken up in the morning and found the entire sharemarket is worth zero either. Of course property markets do crash, have crashed and could crash again. "Slow and well publicised"? How about 30% nominal off the average value for an entire state in under 5 years (with many areas 50%+ lower)? How about 20 years for the previous high to be exceeded? This has happened before in the country, and I think it could rightly be categorised as a crash!
From RESERVE BANK OF AUSTRALIA 2003 CONFERENCE Asset Prices and Monetary Policy:
Quote:
3.2 The crash The crash began in 1891. Land values fell to levels around one half their boom levels. In addition to the picture given by Figure 6, data on individual suburbs are available. In Prahran, prices peaked at an average of over £1 000 per property in 1888 and fell to £520 by 1898. Similarly, in Brighton, Average property values peaked at around £950 in 1888 and then fell to around £400 in 1893 and £300 in 1898. A comparison of these data to the accounts in Cannon (1966) suggests that the picture is fairly accurate but may understate the speed of the bust. For example, Cannon writes that, ‘by the end of 1891 the bottom had completely dropped out of the land market … In Collins Street, sites for which £2 000 a foot had been rejected a short time before, were now being offered for £600 a foot – and could not find buyers even at that price’ (Cannon 1966, p 18). . . . . . . . . . . . .
I can only assume your friend actually bought a purchase option or simply signed an OTP purchase contract with $25k deposit.
Supposing a developer is building an apartment building where most apartments are to be valued at $250k. They'll try to sell as many units off-the-plan as they can, typically asking 10% deposit. Speculators who believe the value of the property will rise between signing the contract and building completion will purchase apartments using just the 10% deposit then resell at or before completion.
They might purchase 1 x $250k apartment using a $25k deposit. They might not even be able to get finance for the whole $250k, but can take a personal loan for $25k. They expect the apartment to be worth $300k at completion in 12 months time, so should be able to resell it, scoring a their deposit plus $50k windfall.
The risks in this strategy are as follows: – The developer spends much of the deposit money, fails to construct the building, company declares insolvency and directors retire to their beachfront palaces. – The speculator finds that the apartment has not appreciated prior to completion (might have been overpriced to begin with) or is even worth less than the contracted value. They cannot onsell the contract / option. Some developers might let them walk away from the contract and they lose their deposit. Others will pursue the failed speculator for the entire contract. This happened in Melbourne in 2004. People were forced to remortgage their homes and left with apartments worth less than they'd paid that they were unable to sell (bank wouldn't let them sell due to negative equity). Some didn't have the equity in their homes and were persued into bankruptcy.
San Antonio's formerly high-flying new housing market has returned to earth.
First-quarter housing starts dropped 25.5 percent, in stark contrast to the first quarter of 2006 when builders worked at an exuberant pace.
Now the realities of last year's real estate frenzy are casting a shadow over the market, as builders sell off the excess inventory that started stacking up late last summer and in the fall, according to Metrostudy, a housing research firm.
Is this San Antonio? Are you sure it's really special and not just lagging the coast?
Last I heard housing starts had fallen 25% over the first quarter and inventory levels had risen almost 45% over the last 12 months and that most of those buying were out-of-state speculators. Are these accurate or are the newspapers and mega-builders (DH Horton etc) misrepresenting the market?
We could live off my wifes wage easily and be able to bank $1000 (my wage) a week in savings
Sounds like a fairly sound strategy (Note: I know nothing! Talk to a professional)! Bankwest will turn that into $54,000 in a year at minimum risk (disclaimer ditto). Weight that against the possibility of the bigger house appreciating $54,000 over 12 months if you sold it. Remember, the house price could go up, sideways or down.
You posed the question: "What would you guys and girls do?"
And gave the options as: – "sell and be debt free" – "keep up with the jones"
This is an easy one for me. As I have no interest in comparing myself to other people (particularly those kind of people), "keep up with the jones" is out so the only alternative given is "sell and be debt free". Regardless, I've chosen the second option myself and it hasn't been unkind to me at all! It's nice to be able to grow my investments a few thousand a month without any leverage whatsoever.
Sure, I'm pretty bearish on residential real estate at the moment but if I'm wrong I've got one or two (depending on accounting method!) houses worth of equity that will grow. It's the ultimate win-win!
And of course, the final thing I'd do is ask my wife to read “Affluenza” by Clive Hamilton, “Affluenza” by Oliver James, “The High Price of Materialism” by Tim Kasser, “Paradox of Choice” by Barry Schwartz and “The Overspent American” by Juliet Schor. Just for starters.
By then I should have finished writing my essay called "How living in a small home changed my life and why I would recommend it to anbody who feels constantly stressed, pressured or pressed for time"! Seriously.
Inflation? maybe. Price of house doubles every 10 years. And actual money doubles 25 years.
Good point. Problem is: Chart courtesy of Steve Keen (http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?page_id=16) (Mortgage debt vs household income is even more out of whack given household income < GDP)
Problem is that house prices only rise faster than inflation so long as debt rises faster than income. That's something that's happened fairly steadily since Nixon severed the dollar's tie to gold but it is by no means something that can go on forever. To borrow from Mr Keen's report (the words not the opinion):
"[T]hings can’t continue as normal, when normal involves an unsustainable trend in debt. At some point, there has to be a break–though timing when that break will occur is next to impossible, especially so when it depends in part on individual decisions to borrow."
You're quite right, inflation (specifically wage inflation) in the order of 10%+ per annum could perhaps solve the problem in a matter of years. Unfortunately, where would interest rates go? More importantly, the window of opportunity for inflating away our debt is closing fast. I'm inclined to believe we're headed for a deflationary period beginning some time over the next few years.
Just about the only thing that could delay (but not prevent) something* causing a collapse of my optimistic plan (the buy one house plan, not the deflation thing) is… one final frothy blow-up in the housing boom. The future is in your hands! I'd be stoked if we could have 40%+ in Victoria by year's end!
Cheers, F. [cowboy2]
*Your pick – high interest rates brought on by inflation, or declining house prices from debt deflation.
millions – Nope, just the equity from the one boarded up home. Brilliant huh? It helps to have a large chunk of readily available cash or cash equivalents. And only works if the optimistic prophecies come true.
What's more, the more people that followed my plan (thanks HG!), the less houses would be available to renters! This would make yields rise, stir up investor confidence and push prices to the stratosphere!
Note: I actually will not be implementing this plan. My firm belief is that the cost of capital over the next decade or so will be considerably higher than the returns from debt-backed assets. What’s more, such a plan relies on the ability and willingness of lenders to frequently revalue the house and extend further credit. The assumption that this will always be possible based on the ability to do it now is tenuous at best.
Think about this: * If person a borrowed $160,000 against a $200,000 house on an income of $60,000 how would the bank rate her risk? * If person b borrowed $320,000 against a $400,000 house on an income of $60,000 how would the bank rate this risk in relation to person a? * If person c borrowed $3.2 million against a $4 million dollar house on practically no income, how would the bank rate this risk?
Supposing we have a credit crunch – say a simple slowing of credit creation (as opposed to an actual contraction in credit, which is not only possible but also a plausible future scenario given our current record level of indebtedness). Who do you think the banks would be lending their now limited money to?
Now suppose I told you that such a credit crunch is absolutely inevitable?
I’m not trying to poop in the punch-bowl, just begging people to ask the hard questions.
These are my opinions in regards to Foundations comments. You would need about 10 properties sitting there, not 1. In 20 years time you could sell 5, pay off mortgages on the other 5 and retire. I've roughly worked out if you have $1.8 million net worth in property today you could retire comfortably in 10 years. Anyone agree or disagree?
Rubbish. I could purchase 1 property for $500,000 (with a very small mortgage). This would be worth $613,000 in 3 years (according to mythology). I could then retire on $43,000 minus mortgage payments. This figure would go on rising by 7% per year. All this without renting the house out for even a day! By the time I was 45, I'd be getting $90k pa. By 55 years of age I'd be getting $177k pa. By 65 years of age I'd be 'earning' $350,000 per year for just sitting around. One vacant house is all it would take!
Why shouldn't I do this? Why shouldn't every single person do this?
Sure, some would have less downpayment and might have to work a little longer, or even rent the house out. Then what? How great would it be living in a country where nobody had to left a finger to earn money! Am I being completely stupid and irrational? Is there a fundamental difference between my plan and sienna1's?
there are ways to do it without putting you to far into trouble. there will always be people that tell you you cant do it but u can.
Right, you've got my attention. Big rewards, no risk. That's what I like to hear! Woohoo, fire away!
Quote:
we […] refinanced our home […] interest only […] from advice that over the next 10 years our house price should double, here is a quick run down of what we shall do. […]kaching.
think positive find a way and brush off the nay sayers.
There's a difference between rational positive thinking and irresponsible magical thinking. So you had advice that the price of your house should double over the next 10 years. I'd love to hear where you got this advice. I'd also be interested to hear what you did when you heard this opinion. Here's what I do when somebody offers an opinion:
Consider that opinion. If the opinion doesn't stand up to scrutiny or the opinionator can't substantiate it, disregard it. Assume all opinions are false unless they are backed by sufficient evidence. If the opinion relates a future (which is always uncertain) without acknowledging this lack of certainty, disregard it. Once the opinion is substantiated to my satisfaction, then and only then consider staking my financial future on it.
See here's the thing. If these prophets who claim house prices will double every 10 years into perpetuity are correct, I could purchase just one house tomorrow, board up all the doors and windows, then retire in three years (mid 30s). The capital gain would by then be sufficient to pay (using a line of credit) the small remaining mortgage and to replace my wage. Better still, the amount I could draw to replace my wage would rise by 7% per year each and every year for the rest of my life! Sure beats the 3%-5% increases I've been getting lately!
Would this be a wise thing for me to do? Why/why not?
Would this be a wise thing for every singe working person in Australia to do? Why/why not?
Good story Courage, thanks for your legwork and sharing! Unfortunately there are no auctions in my area at present. I'd love to test my wits in this homework challenge!
"Despite Dummy bidding being against the law, it's happening."
That was precisely my thought as I read your tale…
1) What average rate of appreciation are the NAR currently predicting for the US as a whole? 2) How's the Florida market looking? 3) Are US citizens still on track to reach a world record 2,000,000 foreclosures over 12 months? 4) What proportion of states & counties have seen sales drop by 25% or more in the 12 months from March 2006 to March 2007? 5) Is it true that 30+ percent of buyers in most markets no longer qualify for any finance now that various forms of exotic finance have become extinct?
Thanks Simon – like houses I suppose you can go for yield v growth?.
Be very careful not to oversimplify this point. Lower yield does not imply higher future growth. Likewise, higher yield does not imply low future growth. Often you'll find lower yield represents nothing more than excessive growth in the recent past .
MPL, I pick "none of the above" and "seasonal" followed closely by "REIV's press releases regurgitated by incompetent 'journalists'".
The main cause of apparently high auction prices is a practice of deliberate underquoting by REAs.
In other news from the REIV – median metropolitan house prices fell $11,000 in the 3 months to March to $380,000 and are now below the original peak from 2003. Not lovely. Also – house prices falling in Victorian regional towns and cities, including a $61,000 (21%) decline in the median sales price for the greater Shepparton area in the 12 months to March. Shep dropped 12 percent for the quarter alone.
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