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    Here's a really simple Cash Flow Analysis to help you understand.  In this example I want to use the example of a 400K property, completed, being purchased in SA.

    For this exercise, I also want to assume you are borrowing 90% plus LMI, so your contribution is 10% of the purchase price, which is  40K  ( this is borrowed against equity)

    You will also need to contribute Stamp Duty in SA, which is $16,630  for a 400K purchase ( minus $8500 Revenue SA rebate)  =  $8,150 ( also borrowed against equity )

    I'd also like you to set aside 10K as a "cash flow buffer" – to cover the  out of pocket holding costs for Year 1  ( also borrowed against equity)   You'll see why, below.

    let's also allow 2.5K or so for conveyancing, quantity survey and building/pest inspections.   (also borrowed against equity)

    So let's consider your total contribution is $51,650 – the bank is funding the rest

    EXPENSES

    You have borrowed $51,650 , plus 90% ( 360K)  plus capitalised LMI  ( Im using 2% in this example- so $7200)   so your total borrowings = $418,850. 

    If you borrow at a 2 or 3 year fixed rate of 4.99%, Interest Only , your repayments = $20,900.62 per annum

    You will also have miscellaneous expenses such as Property Management, Strata, Rates, Water, Insurance – lets call it 5K per annum

    So your total expenses for the year will be $25,900.62.  Lets just call it an even $26K

    INCOME

    The property would normally achieve $400 per week rental income, but under the NRAS, you will receive 80%, so $320 per week, or $16,640 per annum

    THE TAX STUFF  PART 1

    Your expenses are $26K for the year ( see above) .   Your income is $16,640 ( see above) .  So you have generated a cash flow shortfall of $9,360  ( if you recall, this is paid for by the 10K you borrowed against equity – see above. In other words, ZERO cash input from your pocket. It's a straight up equity play- nothing else. )   This is a deductible loss for tax purposes

    You will also have a further deductible loss which you can claim for the depreciation.  Let's use a figure of 10K in this example.

    Your total deductible loss is therefore $19,360  ( $9,360 cash loss AND 10K depreciation)

    THE TAX STUFF  PART 2

    Depending on your Marginal Tax Rate, you will most likely be entitled to an ATO refund for the $19,360 "loss" you have incurred.  Assuming a MTR of 37%, this "deductible loss" would result in an ATO refund of $7,163.20  PLUS a tax free NRAS incentive totaling $10,350.  ( Total = $17,513.20 received back from ATO and NRAS)

    Remember that your pre -tax "cash flow shortfall" was $9,360,  ( see above) and you've now received an ATO / NRAS refund for $17,513,20 ( tax free)   so your AFTER TAX outcome is to be Cash Flow Positive $8,153.20

    If you recall; you accessed exactly $51,650 of your equity to produce a tax free CF outcome of $8,153.20, which is equal to a 15.79% tax free return on equity.

    Of course, you can change the purchase price , stamp duty ( less for house/land for example) and interest rate to suit whichever scenario you're considering-   and just by way of an example, on 350K  (ish) house/land packages  where Stamp Duty is only payable on the land, you'll generally be contributing 40-45K instead of 50-55K , but still netting 8K or more tax free, so the ROE is closer to 20% tax free.

    Whichever way you do the numbers, the returns are entirely tax free, and entirely superior to any other opportunity in residential property.  But as others have warned-  valuations can be a serious problem. ESPECIALLY when you buy from the online project marketer community. 

    So before all else- rule 1 is very simple – ask for a copy of a recent valuation, completed by a reputable/recognised firm, before agreeing to anything.  Or, have your broker order a valuation upfront before signing anything.

    There are many, many good NRAS opportunities where valuations are rock solid.  Every one of my clients will tell you that every NRAS property I recommend has valued on the contract price or in a rare few examples, very close to the contract price.   Just make sure to ask about valuations first and foremost

    Profile photo of euro73euro73
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    Not quite ,  I'm afraid. 

    NRAS is voluntary.  To enter a property into the NRAS, an investor must enter an agreement with the NRAS "approved participant" ( sometimes referred to as a consortium) who is responsible for administering the NRAS allocation on their particular dwelling.  The agreement through which this occurs can take the form of a Head Lease Agreement or a Non Entity Joint Venture, generally speaking.   ( there are a couple of other variations, but these arent approved by lenders or insurers  and are extremely rare so I wont get into it here) In NEITHER case  ( Head Lease or NEJV) are you ( the investor) stuck, locked in or anything else, for 10 years.  In NEITHER case are you ( the investor) unable to cease participating in the NRAS any time you elect to do so.

    There is absolutely NOTHING in the NRAS Scheme 2008 legislation that requires mandatory participation, or 10 year participation.

    The property can be sold to another investor, or to another Owner Occupier at ANY TIME during the time the property is eligible to participate in the NRAS ( 10 years) and there are NO RESTRICTIONS on this, whatsoever.  If it happens to be an investor who buys from you, they can choose to take up the remaining term of the 10 years eligibility if they wish to, but they are NOT obliged to do so if they choose not to.  Obviously if you sell to an Owner Occupier, they cant use the NRAS eligibility.

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    There are 137 consortiums, and only about a dozen (actually, 14 I think) are actually approved by Genworth LMI and various lenders. To get approved, their agreement documentation has to pass the banks and the insurers scrutiny, which means no restrictions on repossessing or disposing of the asset in the event of a delinquency.

    So bottom line is, if a bank has approved the NRAS model, there is simply ZERO excuse for a valuer to treat it any differently.  If the banks and Genworth LMI have OK'd the consortiums model, they are obviously satisfied that it places their mortgage under no threat whatsoever, as far as disposing of the asset (selling it) is concerned.  So a valuation should reflect that!

    The only time this might come up and be understandable is if you are purchasing an NRAS property where the consortium (the owner of the NRAS allocation for that property) has a rubbish agreement, which isnt bank approved.  And no one should be dealing with those properties anyway because the only way to get finance is to not disclose NRAS, and you'd be committing fraud by doing that.

    Unfortunately , like many investors and commentators, its been my experience that many valuers just dont understand NRAS. The first Head lease model released in 2009 had severe restrictions on lenders abilities to repossess and sell a property if the mortgage became delinquent, and I think that many valuers still think that's the case, and applies to all NRAS consortiums agreements. Its just not the case though. That particular consortium ( QAHC)  has long ago (at least 2 years ago) amended their head lease agreement to remove that restriction, and all the lenders are happy to lend against their model these days.  I think valuers just arent up to speed in many cases, is all.

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    Troy is absolutely correct.  You get the Commonwealth Component (75% of the total $9981 incentive) paid to you by the ATO via your tax return, whether you have an income to offset it against or not.  A refundable Tax Offset is different to a tax offset. 

    For the State Component ( the other 25% of the total incentive of $9981) it is paid by the States in August , as non assessable, non exempt income.  In other words, they send you a cheque or make an electronic deposit to your account, and the money is also tax free. 

    So you get the full amount tax free whether you have an assessable income or not.  This is where most people get tripped up in misunderstanding NRAS. Here's something that clears it up nicely.

    http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/00179876.htm&page=4&H4

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    She is confused, Im afraid.

    When the Commonwealth and State Governments issue  an NRAS approval for a dwelling,  it has an NRAS "entitlement " awarded to it.   The NRAS "entitlement" does not form part of the title, however.  It is simply an eligibility for the property to be entered into the NRAS.

    Now,  here's where people get confused.  if the NRAS "entitlement" is not part of the title, who actually owns it?  The answer is, the "entitlement" is owned by an NRAS Approved Participant , more commonly known as an NRAS Consortium.  The "entitlement" has been approved for the particular dwelling in question, but is owned by the consortium and isnt attached to the property in any physical way or linked to it via the title.  After all, its really just an eligibility for a tax scheme, so there's nowhere to "attach" it to a title.

    There is a very simple reason for this.  The NRAS legislation only allows for institutional investors (also known as approved participants, and more commonly known as consortiums) to participate in the scheme.  So when you buy an NRAS approved dwelling, you cannot enter it directly into the scheme yourself, because you are not an Approved Participant. 

    The consortium that holds the NRAS "entitlement" for the dwelling you are purchasing, is an Approved Participant though, so you have to enter the dwelling into the scheme via their legal vehicle. Depending on which consortium owns the "entitlement" on the property you purchase, this can take the form of either a Head Lease Agreement, Non Entity Joint Venture or Managed Investment Scheme. 

    FYI – No investor "owns" the title on any property until the bank releases it to you. And that only happens when the title becomes unencumbered of a mortgage :)

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    INCORRECT!  Its a refundable Tax Offset- you get it whether you have a taxable income or not.  

    http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.aspx?menuid=0&doc=/content/00179876.htm&page=4&H4

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    You're talking about the QAHC model- which is unfortunately the most expensive in the market, and requires a 25% rental discount.    All other NRAS models have lower fees and require only a 20% rental discount.  I dont know why so many people choose to go with NRAS properties approved under the QAHC model, when there are so many other options…..

    I've said over and over again… try to stay out of SE Qld and make sure you talk to people who know what they're talking about with NRAS :)

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    This is not a fair comment.  Sorry.  Not trying to "flame" you, but you havent qualified any of your opinions…

    Resale is not complicated.  same as any property.  What do you believe is more complicated?  Can you qualify your comments please?

    valuations are done by lenders to determine suitability of the contact asking price- same as any other property.  If some NRAS approved properties are overpriced, that's the developers issue- why blame the NRAS?  Does that mean the non NRAS properties in an overpriced developments are OK, or is it just the NRAS ones that are causing the problem?

    What are you basing Capital growth opinions on? How do you predict capital growth?   Especially given the current market, where the RBA Governor says there will be none, and when the CEO's of major banks say there will be none for at least a decade,  and when RP DATA and APM stats show there has basically been none since 2007 across most cities….?

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    Westpac, STG, Rams, Members Equity, BOQ, Resimac, Adelaide Bank, Bank SA, Bank of Melbourne, Bendigo Bank, Wide Bay Building Society, Liberty Financial  – all got to 90% plus LMI  for NRAS

    ANZ, NAB, firstmac, the Rock Building Society – all go to 80% for NRAS

    Adelaide Bank and Firstmac allow the use of the NRAS tax incentives for servicing- up to 80% LVR only.

    Not all the banks have the same consortiums approved though.  Westpac, STG, Rams, Bank SA, Bank of Melbourne,Adelaide , Liberty and firstmac have the biggest list of approved consortiums

    Genworth LMI has approved 14 NRAS consortiums in total  ( most up to 90% plus  LMI)

    QAHC ( their non head lease model only.  Their Head Lease model is constrained to 85% )

    Brisbane Housing Company – 85% (its a Head Lease model)

    Aspire Housing – 90% Plus LMI  ( its a Non Entity Joint Venture)

    Questus – 90% Plus LMI  ( NEJV via a Managed Investment Scheme)

    Affordable Management Corporation – 90% plus LMI  NEJV

    Urban Affordable Housing Association – 90% Plus LMI  NEJV

    Crown Property – 90% Plus LMI  NEJV

    Ethan Affordable Housing – 90% Plus LMI  NEJV

    Mission Australia – 90% Plus LMI NEJV

    Providence Housing – 90% Plus LMI NEJV

    Affordable Housing Consulting – 90% plus LMI   NEJV

    Quantum Housing  – 90% Plus LMI   NEJV

    Community Housing Canberra – 90% Plus LMI  NEJV

    Yaran Residential Investment – 90% Plus LMI   NEJV

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    lamp1111 wrote:
    Olauf98 wrote:
    Hi everyone I'm a newbie. Apologies if the question has been asked before. Who are those lenders to borrow from as my understanding the big four are reluctant.

    Hi Olauf98,

    I have asked Westpac and the loan manager told me that they do lend for NRAS property.

    Cheers,

    lamp1111

    Ive posted on the question of NRAS finance quite extensively previously.  This should help answer your questions.

    https://www.propertyinvesting.com/forums/property-investing/general-property/4334862

    In a nutshell.  Westpac , St George and Firstmac and the three serious NRAS lenders. Some other lenders dabble a bit, but these are the three that are fair dinkum.  Best LVR is St George and Westpac at 85% ( firstmac does 80%) . Best borrowing capacity is Firstmac by quite a distance. ( Westpac is ok too.  St George is poor)
    The most important thing in any NRAS purchase is making sure you are buying a property where the NRAS allocation belongs to an NRAS model that one of these three lenders will fund- otherwise you will really struggle to find finance.

    Westpac and St George will lend against these NRAS models

    QAHC
    Brisbane Housing
    Yarran
    Questus
    Affordable Management Corporation
    Aspire Housing

    FirstMac will lend against

    QAHC
    Questus
    Affordable Management Corporation
    Aspire Housing
    Ethan Affordable Housing
    Urban Affordable Housing Association
    Accelerated Wealth Systems/Quantum

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    Kent Cliffe wrote:
    luke86 wrote:

    I disagree. Subprime loans were for subprime borrowers- being an NRAS property has nothing to do with the borrowers capability to repay the debt. I dont think this is a valid comparison. The tenants may or may not be bad tenants, but as the landlord you can approve who is or isnt able to live there so with enough luck (actually, investment skill), you can weed out the poor tenants. You may still end up with a dud tenant, but you might get that anyway with a regular investment property.

    Of course you need to do your sums to see whether it is a viable investment. In my opinion, a NRAS property would be fantastic if you were able to be the developer. Unfortunately, some developers are making money off NRAS by getting the NRAS approval for the development, building the property, and then charging you a premium because you can then get the free money from the governnment. If you could be the person to build the units and get the NRAS funding, and then keep them all as cash flow positive properties yourself then you could be on a winner.

    Buying them from a developer would work if you purchase it at market value, but I think most developers are marketing NRAS properties as ways to get free money and so are charging more than market value for them.

    Cheers,

    Luke

    Instead of the investment as an individual asset you manage. I was meaning the markets perception of the asset class. Similar to what we see now with managed short stay accommodation, there can be a stigma attached.

    The analogy with sub prime loans wasn't a direct comparison. Not all loans went bad (similar to not your property being bad), however the prices attached to these securities fell due to the market perception (people are turned off in the future).  Despite all the marketing, these dwellings are intended for a similar socio economic level as sub prime loans.  

    Respectfully- bollocks!

    These dwellings are intended for essential services employees such as police, nurses etc. particularly those at the early stages of their careers, when their incomes are at the lowest rung.  Of course the scheme is not restricted to those professions but  the income thresholds required for eligibility make over 70% of taxpayers eligible.  This is not social housing. It is affordable housing, designed to deliver some stimulus to the construction industry and discounted rent to essential services employees.

    The scheme is flexible. It allows for an individual eligible tenants income to increase. A tenants income needs to increase by more than 25% for two years consecutively before they lose their eligibility to remain a tenant in an NRAS approved dwelling.  Take a closer look at the income thresholds for eligibility.
    http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/housing/pubs/housing/nras/Pages/factsheet_tenant_profile.aspx
    http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/housing/progserv/affordability/nras/Pages/nras_info.aspx#nras_12

    As far as property valuations being affected by a stigma… NRAS dwellings are located everywhere, with a maximum concentration of 30% in any one development- except for a very small number of medium density unit blocks where 100% concentration has been allowed.  In most cases, concentration is far less than 20%.  There will be 50,000 dwellings across at least 1000 locations.
    Builders such as Metropolitan, Devine and AV Jennings are delivering stock.  Are we really to believe that a typical Australian residential housing development full of AV Jennings built houses will suffer pricing shock as a result of 1 in 5 or 6 securities being rented to police and teachers at 20% below market, as part of this scheme?

    There will be dud properties and there will be rippers. That is a given, of course. There will be great tenants and terrible ones. That is a given also, but that's no different to any investment property  – DHA, non NRAS or NRAS included.

    If a stigma does develop around NRAS -it wont be because the properties are rubbish or because the tenants are on the dole and damage your property – it will be because of irresponsible commentary.   People should be supporting this scheme enthusiastically, as far as the concept goes at least.  It is well conceived and intended to deliver very real, useful and valuable outcomes.

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    lamp1111 wrote:

    Hi guys,

     I am so glad that I read Jamie’s advice before seeing the bank manager yesterday! The manager told me that I can borrow in two ways; 1. Borrow all from their bank; 2. Same as what Jamie told me J Initially, I didn’t quite understand why, but after further elaboration from you guys and my digestion system worked over night (couldn't sleep), it makes more sense to me now, I’m so happy that I’ve learn new thing. Thanks guys.

    I just got my current bank HSBC approved to lend me 25% of the proposed value of the potential IP today. I am thinking that the 5% (in case) may be used for renovation and other settlement costs. Westpac is happy to lend me the 80% as well J

    Now it comes to the next challenge, I was initially considering IP from the National Rental Affordability Scheme (NRAS), put a posting in another thread and got infomation from Jamie too , this scheme is still very new to Victorian, currently, new development will be started in Casey, Victoria, and expected completion in Aug 2012 (17 months later), I’ve looked at the information from the developer, the apartments look very nice (cost about $370K) and I drove to the suburb to learn about the area after work yesterday, not bad either. But I learned from Steve McKnight’s books and other members of this forum that mostly investors talk about purchasing old IP and renovate to leverage the value in order to rent / sell. I’m also considering old units and renovate. My query is which in fact is more sounded? Old unit (under 350K which requires renovation and look for tenant, current area I'm looking should not be short of tenant, but the rental will not put me in a postively geared position, I cannot afford to look for other suburbs due to budget) or new apartment (approx. 370K) with rental guaranteed but government restrictions and new concept?? Initial thinking is to hold the property for 5 years then revise if sell or keep.

     Cheers,

    Lamp

    Lamp, you mentioned that you are considering buying an older unit and renovating, OR purchasing an NRAS approved unit within the Casey Gardens development.  I personally believe the NRAS scheme offers you far more, but its really your decision. Respectfully, it doesnt sound like you have much experience or knowledge about the basics of investment property, or investment property finance, so taking on a renovation may not be for you. Purchasing something new, with great tax incentives attached, which will basically be set and forget as you learn what you are doing, may make life far simpler. But do your own research and decide which better suits your knowledge and risk appetite. Ultimately its your choice. If you decide to purchase the Casey Gardens unit, please understand that it creates some unique issues for you to consider;
    1. The NRAS consortium that owns the NRAS allocations for Casey Gardens is Providence Housing.  
    2. You would be required to enter into a Head lease Agreement with Providence Housing to enter the property into the NRAS
    3. The purchase will be Off The Plan 
    4. You will require unconditional finance or cash for a 10% deposit, as Providence Housing does not accept deposit bonds

    I know the development well and you are right in saying that the units are very good quality. They will offer excellent depreciation, are well priced and will easily be tenanted.  They should also offer strong growth- but none of us has a crystal ball on that. What I do know is that HSBC will NOT lend to you for an NRAS purchase. You can ask Westpac or St George or NAB ( all three will lend on NRAS to varying degrees) but I dont think they'll do it for you either. Non of them offer funding for the Providence Housing model- yet. Im sure they will in future, but they dont right now. Providence is a very new NRAS model, so the banks havent had much of a chance to due their due diligence yet. However- one lender can assist. The ONLY lender that offers NRAS funding, AND unconditional approvals for Off The Plan is firstmac. 
    https://www.firstmac.com.au/Pages/Easy%20Livez%20-%20NRAS%20loan.aspx
    Of course- the other advantage is that firstmac uses 100% of the NRAS incentive towards servicing – none of the other NRAS lenders do this- so they will offer you much better borrowing capacity.

    So IF  you decide to take the NRAS path, you would need to consider do the following;

    1. You could access some of the equity in your existing property by doing an increase with your existing lender for 20% plus costs, stamp duty, legals etc (approx 90K total) for the 370K NRAS purchase, and set this up as Jamie has suggested- an Interest Only split – secured by your PPOR,  OR,  I'd actually suggest something a little different- I'd refinance and consider something like this –
    https://www.loans.com.au/Pages/Home-Loans.aspx    
    If you set the loan up as Jamie has suggested, you are only using a very small amount of your equity. Thats great, and if you have plans to use further equity for another Investment purchase ( NRAS or non NRAS) Jamies recommendation is spot on, because you can do a further equity release ( subject to your ability to qualify for the loan)  to purchase another investment property at a later time. However, if you do not intend to use the remaining equity in your PPOR for a further investment purchase at any time in the next 4 or 5years, I would recommend a slightly different solution. I would refinance to one of the providers above ( to access a rate of 6.85%) and set the loan up as follows; assuming your PPOR is now worth 350K.
    Split 1 –  44K Principle and Interest @ 6.85% with 100% Offset
    Split 2 –  236K 10 years  Interest Only @ 6.85%
    This would mean that your PPOR was geared to 80% LVR, but  you would then only need a loan for 134K plus costs ( lets say 15-20K)  – so 154K, against the NRAS security – ie @ 42% LVR.   In a nutshell, you'd still be funding 100% plus costs for the investment purchase, but more of your debt would be at 6.85% Interest Only, so this would mean cheaper repayments and better cash flow for you. 

    So much of the "art" of property investment is in managing cash flow and using the right finance products to assist you in reaching your goals. With an income of 84K, I think cash flow will be critical for you as you take on debt, so my suggestion is worth considering.

    Of course, if you dont go with NRAS – ignore this post completely :)

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    Jamie M wrote:
    euro73 wrote:
    Anyway, it really bugs me when finance professionals bag non bank lenders on these forums.  Without them, none of us would have an industry,, there would have been far less innovation in products, and we would likely all be paying more. It's really a bug bear of mine so Im pedantic about making sure they are represented correctly, not unfairly. 

    Hi Euro I don't recall anyone bagging out non-bank lenders. I've actually got more loans settling at present with non-majors. I certainly don't have an issue with them – and I don't believe the others guys do either. FYI – keep up those NRAS posts. Very informative. Cheers Jamie

    Fair enough Jamie…. I was only taking exception to comments like inflexible, rates unstable, sub 50m2 niches etc etc.  Those sorts of comments may not have been designed to imply non banks such as firstmac in this case, are not well liked or respected- but you can appreciate how they may be construed that way?  I think non banks need as much positive promotion as possible, thats all.

    Anyway… back to the post – crazy to move from 7.11% when you really wont save much ( if anything) by doing so. 

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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Michael i totally agree.

    I went to a breakfast meeting only last week at their HQ here in Brisbane and the < 50 Sq M product was mentioned as a niche product.

    I have known Kim Cannon for nearly 18 years back to his Nationale days and First Mac as they are now known after the amalgamation of the previous businesses has always been slightly different in the odd area and space. He is definately an innovator and very successful.

    I like Michael support non bank lenders as much as the next however you have to be accurate in your facts. The product is available and openly marketed by their BDM's. Like anything if you get the support of the back up staff and credit and the range of products is acceptable then certainly you would look at them as a lender and be in your suite of loans you would recommend to a potential client.

    Personally i dont consider their range of product or service levels to be what i am after from a lender so other than the odd loan i dont place them high on my list of potential funders.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard- come on… there is no such thing. HomeRun08 is long ended.  Firstmac doesnt take sub 50m as a niche.  You guys are having a lend :)  

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    Shape wrote:
    Richard is correct, here is a bit of history lesson. Euro you are true when you say they are "securitised lenders" and technical speaking ( book wise) it' doesn't make sense for them to lend for such specialized security, but at the end of the day- they do…i can;t speak for all brokers; but my firm alone has placed many loan via securitised lenders for unit has low as 30 squ meters ( read on)


    From 2008-Beginning of 2009


    There were a range of lenders that still offer finance for units as low as 15 squ meters ( CBA, ANZ …etc) however for the client who did not fit the CBA or ANZ criteria – there were – First mac, Heritage, Wide bay etc… First mac – they were specialist with the under 50 squ meters with there homerun08 product – how do i know this you ask? because our firm has placed well over 15 deals with first mac from 2008-2009 and they were all for unit's as low as 30 squ!!! note; this product was taken off the shelf as of Dec 2009. Homerun08- Unit as low as 30 squ acceptable, 60% LVR, full doc, self contained and max exposure limit of 20%.


    2010- to Present


    A lot of these lenders has tighten their rule books; unit as low as 30 squ only possible for existing clients of the bank and must not be there first IP. If the deal is right; nothing is impossible- it's just a case of asking. As mentioned, we still place loan via Firstmac if it make sense too. P.s Euro- relax a bit buddy, every time you post i can feel a bit of tension and stress. Relax! Regards Michael

    Guys , guys guys..HomeRun08 was an Origin (ANZ) product they had on the market for maybe 9 months during 2008 and the first parts of 2009.  It has LONG ago been pulled.

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    Shape wrote:
    under 50 for living space – excluding the carspace etc…. Placed one loan via them before for a FHO in Chippendale- 44 internal with 10 for car space. And the LMI was placed via QBE- within their acceptable guild-lines of under 50 inclusive Euro- dont accuse till you have done the work. every deal is possible it just depends how the deal is placed and what you have to offset the "negatives of the deal" – i have nothing to prove, as i do this as a free service- ; as much as i hate misleading information…in M Broking information changes all the time. FYI — > this is an internal email sent by first mac "Effective 1 March 2011, FirstMac will no longer require mortgage insurance on all new loans up to 80% LVR (some exclusions* apply). This change means faster turnaround times and a more consistent credit approach, resulting in enhanced service levels for both you and your borrowers. Exclusions* to apply: · New loans over 80% LVR · Construction loans (as per current process, all construction loans will continue to be mortgage insured) · New developments · Additional advances on loans currently mortgage insured —mortgage insurance will continue to apply If you have a loan that fits the current FirstMac policy, but falls within one of the above exclusions, mortgage insurance will be required. In all instances a clean credit bureau report and credit history is required. To summarise: · For new loans < $750,000 and < 80% LVR, mortgage insurance will no longer be required (exclusions* apply) · For any new loans outside the above parameters and FirstMac policy, and provided FirstMac is prepared to support the application to the insurer, mortgage insurance will continue to apply (can be capitalised to the loan) · Where mortgage insurance is required, FirstMac will pay the LMI premium for loans < 80% LVR up to $750,000 (increased from $600,000) " Regards Michael

    If thats the case Michael I apologise…but I want to be clear, I do the work and the research and Im right. Without having to copy and paste the relevant lending policy, I will just say this- they are not a sub 50m2 lender.  You would have had that deal set by exception only, and Im guessing it would have been some time ago.  In any event, your previous post ( and Richard's subsequent post)  implied its a space they lend in regularly (a niche), and that's simply not accurate.  Thats all Im pointing out.

    I understand you provide commentary here free, as do I, but  everyone can put forward one or two deals that were done by exception, as an example of anything. I can find you an example of a 35m2 dual key investment loan written for a 60 year old, for example, but exceptions do not equate to lending polices.  These forums should be accurate, and comments should be fully qualified or they can be misconstrued.
    More widely, the non bank sector has already suffered by not being well supported by introducers since the advent of the GFC and I would have hoped that finance professionals would recognise the hand that feeds them ( and their customers) Its not helpful to imply to investors here that non banks are rubbish.
     Its a great shame, because when the legislation to ban exit fees (which are the lifeblood of, and an absolute necessity for non banks, and which brokers use as a reason NOT to support non banks) passes, Im not sure people (or most our broking colleagues) quite appreciate what the consequences will be; every serious industry spokesperson and representative agrees that borrowers will pay more, competition will be less, and I think we'll all look back and wonder why we were so silly to ignore the obvious signs… the big banks are going to have a field day and finance professionals will more than likely need to move to a fee for service model. Will your cusomers pay you for a service they can get free at a bank? I dont know how it will play out, but its going to be a very different landscape, and broker books wont be worth a brass razoo. Id have thought some additional support of non banks may have quite easily avoided the situation that awaits us all in the second half of this year.
    Anyway, it really bugs me when finance professionals bag non bank lenders on these forums.  Without them, none of us would have an industry,, there would have been far less innovation in products, and we would likely all be paying more. It's really a bug bear of mine so Im pedantic about making sure they are represented correctly, not unfairly. 

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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Hate to say Euro First Mac have the small under 50 Sq niche market for some time now.

    And on the commission front they used to pay Brokers 1.5% upfront with no trail (Couldnt tell you off the top of my head if this is still current) and no clawback so i guess for many Brokers made it an attractive reason to write FM deals.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Thats just not the case Richard. They arent in that space/niche at all. On this one, you are mistaken I'm afraid.

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    Cap B wrote:

    They mortgage insure all loans.  – WRONG. No LMI to 80%.  This has been the case for many months
    Have high set up fees. – No dearer than other Non Banks. Yes, dearer than banks, but then again- non banks dont have other revenues.
    Have high exit fees. –  No dearer than other Non Banks. Careful what you wish for when DEF's disappear.
    The rates are not as stable as the banks. – Gee- facts please?  whats the average movement of the majors and second tiers since the GFC? whats the movement of firstmac and resimac?  ( I agree that OTHER non banks went daft with rates- but lets talk about the Firstmac rates, not the GE rates, shall we?  )
    They pay high commission.  –
    well then, if you dont like brokers and dont think they should be paid- go and sort your own loans out. 

     

    Seriously – check your facts!  Comments like these create an environment where people think that non bank lenders have expensive, volatile products.  I wonder whether some of the finance professionals on here could well do with a refresher course in what lenders other than the big 4 actually offer…. ??

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    Shape wrote:
    Runway wrote:
    Hi Jamie,

    The broker said that they offer 'flexible' products and low interest rates.

    Upon investigation though, it seems their products have high ongoing fees. I wondering if this is done to offset the low interest rate.

    To me it's just another product. However, it's one thing to use a 'flexible' product and another to get superior service when you need it most. The ongoing operating and 'hidden' costs also concern me but that goes for any lender.

    Sounds like I need to go back to the mortgage broker and re-assess.

    First mac would be one of the last i would normally recommended UNLESS you have a service apartment or unit under 50 squ ( even then i would consider ANZ etc…) Didn't your broker give you a "written" comparison of each of the banks. Regards Michael

    Repectfuly Michael… when did a securitised lender, where every deal is mortgage insured,  EVER do serviced apartments or units below 50m2???  That sort of lending has always and only ever been the domain of one or two lenders – maybe you meant NAB or St George, who both do those types of securities????  Firstmac has never taken those kinds of securities. 

    I really dont like to see these forums used to be negative, but really… thats just wrong information mate.

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