Forum Replies Created
Morals are a great bases of a argument but when the argument is the have nots against the haves then the moral argument goes out the window.It becomes a pure personal gain issue from both sides.Investors are up front about it while many others are not.
As for the biggest correction since the 30,s. Who knows. I notice that the mood is changing over at GHPC with many starting to doubt the size of the impending crash. Maybe its time for another bombing run on the investors as they say and try to stir up some more negative sentiment. i personally do believe we are in for a sizable correction and i have plans to protect myself and hopefully gain from it. But i also believe that we will get through it and it will be business as usual a few years later.
Some may question the moral stance of purchasing of buyers who are distressed. Yet this is what many gloomers are intending to do.But they only hate investors right. Well i guess that means if they find a bargain they must ask the owner if it is owner occupied. If it is they must walk away but if its a IP then they can screw the landlord and buy it. Somehow i dont think that will happen.
I think everyone appreciates a opposing view point but you take it beyond that and end up far from what this forum is about.I personally do not understand why you are here. You do not want to invest in property and you dont want to help others. You just want everyone to convert to your line of thinking and you get worked up when people dont tow the line.
Thats just my personal observation. I have no idea why you were banned etc.
ummester wrote:No – I am not Scamp.devo,
What about being morally better off than the generation before us? Having an easier life does not always mean a better life. Better, in this case, obviously depends on your POV.
If assets values in Australia don't decrease, successive generations will not have better lives. People in the 20's thought that future generations would be better of than them in the financial sense – they weren't until around the 80's. 50 odd years of greater financial hardship caused by greed, speculation and overindulgence and it's coming around – read your history and watch the news.
C2,
Define affordable?
Depending on which small business you run there are always laws and regulations governing standards required. Hence the reason for this thread, residential investment, as a business, requires greater regulation.
Society can only afford people to work 50% of their lives if we are breeding faster than we retire but then we run into all sorts of population problems that have adverse effects on the planet (already have). There is a self sustaining balance that can be reached but we need to grow up a little as a species to get there and the pursuit of financial wealth hiders that maturity.
Rich in happiness with health, purpose and knowledge is better than rich in money, cars and houses period.
Damo,
Unfortuanately I don't gamble.
The PM is getting there by himslef, in an ass about kind of way. He could go about it better and is meeting all kinds of opposition but he is on, more or less, the right path. His two biggest problems are peer group pressure and the financial world collapsing around him.
Sorry mate. I dont believe this guilt trip from a moral direction. What i do anyone can do. I will not feel guilty for putting in more effort than the person next to me.I understand people today must pay more than i did for many things. But when i bought my property i paid more than the previose owner. I do not resent them. I accept that this is the order of things.
To argue a case from a moral point of view just means that you have no other substance to base your argument on.
gibbo1 wrote:devo, are you interested in a half share for a lotto ticket this saturday?I am giving my crew the afternoon off and shouting them a few beers. The dollar value in them putting in extra effort will be far greater than the cost of a few beers. Plus another 5 bucks might fall into a pokie too. My wealth is snowballing now.
Ha ha. I just had a meal and a couple of beersdown the pub with my $50 bucks and i put the change in a pokie. Got the feature. $127.000. Man stuff housing,shares or gold. I cant lose.
hbbehrendorff wrote:Anyone who tells you positive news about the housing market is deceiving you, the Average house will not be $600,000+ in 5 or even 10 years time.Wages increase over the past 10 years have been 1.5% pa, The current average australian wage is 55k taking compounding into account in ten years the average wage will be $63,829.75
The average australian on the average wage will not be buying 600 000+ houses, don't believe the bs
Mate. Very few people believe there are no bad times ahead. There just sick of people vomiting up the same crap over and over and over only to have them disappear and then reappear under under a new forum name saying the same crap again.
Yes bad times are coming . We all know that. How bad it will be. Not even you know. the media will be full of bad events but they may be far from the average. You actually raise good points that im sure myself and others take on but then you start that end of world shit and you lose all credability. Yes it might be what you believe but for F@#K sake you are on a INVESTING FORUM.
Go back to GHPC or maybe start a new web site
Itsalloversoletsgokillourselvesnowandbedonewithit.com.au
Every decade or so there is a event that will end life as we know it and there are people everytime out and about trying to convince us of just that. Congratulations your part of history.
Point taken ok. let it go.
hbbehrendorff wrote:"we are not going to be affected much by a recession" What planet are you currently on ? Do you not know that today lehman brothers went broke today ? the dow jones lost 500 points in one day… America has a 8 billion dollar world debt, Banks that survived the great depression are falling over like dominos, The American housing market is totally destroyed and there Interest rates are only 2%. You think Australia's reserve bank lowers interest rates .25% down to 7% and there will be a boom ? Australia's property boom was bigger then the US and you think everything is going to be alright ? Credit Card debt has toped 50 billion in Australia now, double compared to just a few years ago.How much knowledge do you really have about ecconomics ? Do you even know how the system works ? or is everything you know based on Idiots who run seminars that tell you property doubles every 7-10 years ? Perhaps that news that tells you unrealistic BS about the ecconomy being fine and that the worst is over, I'll tell you right now, people havent seen nothing yet, At minimum Australia will have a very bad recession, Though probably a depression, This has been a long time comming, 30 years comming and within the next few years everything will crash around peoples feet and wonder why ? what happened ?
The world cannot continue to run on the same financial doctrine that we have been since the 20th century, Fractional banking just dosent work and now we all have to pay the price for what we have been putting off through compiling debt and false equity.
Our dollar peaked this year at around 98 U.S how it has crashed down to 78, Last year we seen the peak of our property market and this year we saw the peak of our dollar… Thats it folks, the boom is officially finished, The arrow has been shot up so far into the sky and now it is heading into freefall
Unemployment is rising, Sales have plummeted on both housing caused by insane prices and high interest rates along with retail spending, Now our dollar is going to crap which will continue to lower our profits from what is left of the resources boom. It wouldn't matter if interest rates where droped to 4 or 5% tommorow, the damage is already done, people are debbted out to the max while loosing jobs at the same time. It wouldn't supprise me if from this point on the national deficits start up and our national debt goes sky high.
The whole world runs off a consumption ecconomy, this has to stop very soon or the world will stop it for us. Think about it for a minute, You can buy a Toaster for less then $15. No sane person can say that $15 represents the value of the product and its manufacture. Iron is blasted out of the ground in one country, Plastic is made from oil in another country and then these materials are shipped to another to be turned into a product, then its shiped across the world again, then its trucked all the way through your country and brought to your shop, Then the shop pays people to stack the product on a shelf before you come and buy it for a few dollars… this is a linear system and linear systems cannot be run for infinite time, The worlds resources are almost run out and the debt we all take on to make this system continue is causing a burden so great, it can't be ignored any longer.
These are only a few factors playing a role in what the news downplays as a "Slowdown" which is really the whole finacial system comming to collapse.
Major changes are going to come within the next few years, its so imminent yet so many believe huge booms are comming or everything will be ok, Everything will not be ok, People should be preparing now for the future, Buying money that cannot loose value like gold or silver (though it may be conficated by the government in the future) Storing long life food and water, Storing fuel and buying Generators and water purifiers, And considering moving out of the city.
I would appreciate if misinformed people do not start throwing insults because the truth is to unbelieve to believe, If you really think I'm that wrong support your argument with facts not character defamation
Were you not loved as a child shhhh little one. It will be ok. Mummys here to protect you.
PS. Its not all bad news. I found a five bucks today. Bought a scratchy and won $50 bucks. Thats gold.
Dont forget these so called falls are from the absolute top of values to a expected absolute bottom( The worse case scenario). From that low they will go up again eventually. If you bought at the top and sold at the bottom then you are very very unlucky. What houses are worth in ten years is what concerns me. Not next week.
Many say wait till the bottom then buy but when is the bottom and also how many of us have the guts to buy in a environment that most are just worried about keeping a job and nothing else.yes some crappy times are coming. so pay your bills,keep your job and get ready for some good buys at the other end.
ummester wrote:Damo,Everyones expectations are too high. You don't want to have your granparent's life on retirement but if you have any better it will cost some part of this country more than theirs does. You can't have that little bit better without someone having that little bit worse – it's all balanced. I don't know the answer but I do know that people want too much for themselves.
My grandfather worked for 50 out of his 72 years of life and was happy with the 7 he got on the pension to tend his garden before he died. He was alive during the last depression, fought in the second big war and knew the true value of things. I see his generation as the last of the unselfish Australians, since then we have all become too spoilt with long, soft lives and shallow dreams.
Have you ever considerred that after you retire you are not supposed to have much to wake up to each day? Society can't support generation after generation only working 50% of their lifespans – you do realize that, don't you?
Don't kid yourself – the ideal of making money to better yourself can only lead to a few places of which one is the gold taps vs mud huts and another is lining up for bread…
And BTW – I can only judge residential IP owners on those I know (which is a few) and although I like most of them as people they are only in the IP game for what they can gain – they don't care about the communities the IPs exist in to any extent other than investment potentials. Residential IP ownership, like everything else, needs balance. An IP owner has a social responsibilty to produce as much for the area in which the IP exists as they do for thier bank balance. This has been forgotten but, fingers crossed, the affordable housing review will make IP owners remember… or sell up.
Wow i thought there was merit in much of what you had to say but you undid most of it with your last post. What a sad view to have on how we should evolve as a country.
By your thinking we should be no better off than the generation before. That to me means we have failed. I know i have a easier life than my ancestors. As i should
Yes at the moment it looks like the next generation will not have a better life but things have seemed this way many times before. After all we were meant to be wiped out by nuclear war by now right?
I want and expect my children and there children to have a better easier life than i did.Well atleast have the good things in life avilable to them. If they end up lazy and without drive to better themselves then it is there failings not our society. But that just puts us back to where many are failing today. Lazy and no drive to better there life.
I have thought about it but holiday areas suffer the most in a downturn making budge a little risky to me.
ten_burner wrote:Hey give90,
my fiance and I have a one bedroom apartment in Sydney cbd, we have done very well out of it.
main points Ive found is:
-Get one in a small block (up to 30 units) as it has more scarcity, than a block of 150 apartments where there will always be some for-sale at any one time
-Avoid ground floor apartments due to crime and ugly bars on your windows, Ive found tenants would rather pay a bit more rent and be off the ground floor and feel a bit safer without bars on the windows
-Avoid blocks with gym/pool/concierge and alot of elevators as the strata fees are high due to the maintenance and this will eat into your cash-flow
-if you need LMI they dont like anything with a floor space less than 50 metres
all the best
In central Sydney( Im looking at inner west) do you feel a car space is important. Im looking at either
1# Flasher 1 bed 1 bath with period character no carpark
2# Less flash 1 bed 1 bath with car spot
3# lesser apartment but 2 bed 1 bath no car spot
4# Bit rough 2 bed 1 bath with carspaceI have found all theses to be around the same rent return and purchase price in my area( Chippendale). Not sure on what direction i should go.I feel the flasher 1 bed would be better as any large increase in units through development would not compare to converted factories in appeal .
My biggest problem with touching neg gearing now is that property values are already heading south. Why risk making things worse. Its the average mum and dad investor that will suffer not to mention PPOR owners.
Many have stated that investors have driven the market to current highs.I dont buy that. I think during good times the market is driven up by every buyer in the market until you reach a point that they cant afford to go higher. Then things correct. This is happening now and i believe it would continue to happen regardless of neg gearing.
The government gets its fair share from us through all its taxes and still does well out of IP owners especially when they provide for there own retirenment and dont rely on a pension.
Many have set up there finances including the neg gearing in there calculations. To remove this from them is unfair considering many have adopted a long term stratagy using it. All sour grapes aside it is a legit method limit tax during wealth creation and is there for all to use.
How would people feel if you sign on for a 30 year home loan at a known rate and then the bank implements a 4% increase on top of the variable rate due to a policy change in the bank. This is what people are asking investors to put up with.
As stated earlier things will cycle up and down as they always have.People are just on a head hunt in a time of high prices and IP owners are the easy targets.
Fair call. By the way my comment about blaming the world was not directed at you. It is more directed at people that want everything in life but do sweet f@#k all to get it.
You could spend the rest of your life analyzing and breaking down the faults and mistakes of todays society. I dont feel morally corrupt by becoming a investor after all there is a large element of risk involved that could easilly mean you gain nothing. Investing is open to everyone. I am simply taking a opportunity that is on offer as can anyone.I dont want to rely on a government pension. I want a better life.
Yes retirement from Ip ownership is becoming more main stream and what affect this will have is anyones guess. I would say as more become aware of investing in IP as a wealth tool the more likely it will be that it will continue to be used as such.I have concerns for where we are headed as a country but my biggest concern is for the protection of my family and i feel the best way to do that is to protect them with a financial backing. Everything else they need i am already providing.
ummester wrote:devo76 wrote:If the market did crump and gloomers could afford there own home PLUS a investment. I bet most would eat there words and do so happily. And then next boom they will be accused of causing the housing affordability problem. And then they would be pushing the merits of investing having the wisdom and expieriance of seeing things from both sides. Wealth is a strong driver to which i believe many could not argue against.Financial wealth is a bit of an illusion. It won't keep you healthy or make it safe for you to walk the streets at night. It won't stop some poor and disgruntled tenant from robbing and physically injuring you. Even in Rich Dad Poor Dad the author admits that by beating the rat race you are still a rat.
Don't get me wrong, I know financial wealth can have value and believe that hard work and invention should be rewarded in kind. I am niether socialist nor capitalist – I am slowly becoming a patriot and am worried about the countries' future more than isms.
It seems there is a fine line between wealth and greed. True wealth can mean so much more than financial, including freedom, health, friendship and all that kit. I think it is important not to fixate on material wealth alone. I know this forum is about material wealth but as I often say residential property investment carries a social responsibility with it and if investors can't be socially responsibile either the government or the economy of society itself will sort it out. If we are all suckered in by delusions of being the biggest capital investor on the block, than the block is lost.
You raise some good points there and you seem to have genuine concern for our country. That is good.
But i believe wealth can provide most things you have mentioned. If you own a IP and sell it say 15 years later. What do you have after you pay off the debt. You have cash
Cash to put kids through uni
Cash to allow yourself to upgrade your PPOR
Cash to go on holidays and destress
Cash to pay for medical bill that you couldnt afford before
Cash to give you the SANF. This i believe is priceless. We all know how good it feels to have available cash.
I havent even touch on re-investing. Im talking pure cash advantageI have come from a very poor background and could write a book about what i have seen and had to live through. But i worked hard and now consider myself succesfull. But not yet rich.
I have great friends,a wife that loves me with or without money and great health plus a career that many would envy. If my life continued on like this until the end then i would die a happy man.But i have the ability to improve my situation through investing. I bought a IP 1 year ago. Truth be told if investors were not in the market my IP would have been a lot cheaper. But i dont blame them. I think if they can do it then so can i. This can be said for all people at all times in the cycle. I dropped the victim attitude and decided to have a go myself.
If in the future it pays of then i would have provided a better life for my family as well as helping all members of my family ( this i already do ).
I could have easily sat back and blamed the world for me not having a fair go but i didnt. I decided to give it a go instead.
ummester wrote:devo76 – can't vouch for any-one else but I don't ever want an IP. Saying you know you would is being rather arrogant – you can not know what others value in life. I consider a housing a social right and not an investment right and that the long term stabiliy of society is a better investment for me and my family than the short term fiscal lining of my own pocket. What is the point of being rich if the world is broken? If I had enough money, however, I would have no problems with investing in commercial property.That said, I agree that neg gearing can't just be scrapped – it would crash the market too hard and hurt too many people. It has to be phased out slowly and softly, over the next 15 years or so. For instance.
2010 – 10 IP limit for gearing
2011 – 9 IP limit and so on…This will bring balance back to market without causing anyone too great a loss. It is logical, which is why governemnts would never do it…
I agree in part. IF neg gearing was to be changed it would have to be fased in over many years plus it would have to allow those currently neg gearing to continue until they sell. This is the only way they may get enough support to do it.
As for you never wanting to buy a IP. Then you would be one of a very small group of people.
If the market did crump and gloomers could afford there own home PLUS a investment. I bet most would eat there words and do so happily. And then next boom they will be accused of causing the housing affordability problem. And then they would be pushing the merits of investing having the wisdom and expieriance of seeing things from both sides. Wealth is a strong driver to which i believe many could not argue against.Neg gearing helped people provide for there own retirement. The sour grapes out there dont like the idea of investers getting a free lunch. But as stated over and over , investers do provide housing that the government are clearly not able to provide. House prices are correcting now so why would the government want to tamper with it now. Prices could really crash then. I know the sad ass gloomers would love it so they can buy in and then lets be honest. They would start buying IP,s too. ( You know you would)But the effect on the people who currently own homes would be shocking. Home owners are struggling now. Massive neg equity will not help things on top of high repayments.
simple wrote:Hey Guys, this thread started by D on June 5, 2006.
Anyone want to summarize?
1. Early indication of problems in RE in June, 2006
2. First major signs of instability in December??? 2007
3. Today indications of RE loosing value (only small %), September 2008Seem like as time passes it just becomes worse. Given trend we have and based on past experience it seem like next 12 months situation to cause further reduction of RE value. I some how do not think we "have reached permanently flat plateau"
Not sure of the exact numbers but if you bought in SEQ or SA during 2006. You would be able to see a fair price drop before you even get close to your original purchase price.If you bought at the peak and have to sell then you may be in trouble. But this is a small % of ther population.
Its also a shame that like many say around here interest rates will not drop any time soon.. …….. Hang on a minute
ummester wrote:simple wrote:I some how do not think we "have reached permanently flat plateau"Not by half.
Thing is, we could have plateued so much softer around 2005 if Howard didn't double the FHBG and give the capital gains tax concessions. Now the landing will be harder and, in some cases, sink lower than needed for equilibrium because a minor bubble was grown into a big one just to make the economy look good and the rich feel richer.
If this is true does that mean Sydney and NSW are ripe for investment since they have had little to no growth since 2005 for the majority of property. effectively missing the extended portion of the bubble.
tess85 wrote:I'm looking around Newtown/St Peters. My parents are trying to talk me out of one directly underneath the flight path… eg. fuel dumping and all that jazz. Does anyone know much about the health issues of living under a flight path? (apart from the constant day & night noise)If they are required to dump fuel this generally done in a holding pattern out to sea. It is not taken lightly these days and must be investigated when fuel is dumped. I would be more worried about pieces falling of the aircraft. You have no idea how often this happens.
Cheers scamp. Thanks for showing us both sides of the fence.
