Forum Replies Created
- NewInvestor2 wrote:HI Everybody, Thanks for all the interesting reads that goes around here. I am in Sydney and am keen to know how to go about my 1st purchase in USA. Could someone guide me? How do we get the right solicitor, accountant, bank acc? It would be ideal if we could purchase those foreclosed properties without having to fork out hefty fees… Thanks once again… Wishing you guys success in this investment…..in usa
HI NEWINVESTOR
The first thing you need to do is get a US bank account. The easiest way to do this is through HSBC. Find the nearest branch, pay them a visit, and fill out the forms for opening a US-based HSBC account. They will send the forms to the US for you. The whole process should take about 2 weeks.
Once your US bank account is open, send all the money to it (either wire it, or use internet banking).
YESTERDAY I LEARNT SOME STUNNING NEWS REGARDING THE MONEY YOU DEPOSIT IN YOUR US BANK ACCOUNT. EVERYBODY NEEDS TO READ THIS:
Firstly, I was told this news during a phone conversation with an employee of a mortgage bank in Miami. She sounded like she was very experienced in this field, since (according to her) her bank is one of only two offering mortgages to foreigners in Miami.
Here's what she told me:
If all the money you wire to your US account is all your own, and has been sitting in any of your own own bank accounts (or even in stocks purchased in your own name) for the last 3 months, then you won't have any problems. Just send it directly from your account to your new US account, and you can start making offers on properties immediately.
BUT
If you are borrowing money, or can't prove you've been the owner of the money for 3 months, then after you wire it to your US account it must sit untouched in the US for 3 MONTHS before you can purchase a home (this process is known as "seasoning"). The reason for this (in my opinion) idiotic law is because the government wants a clear paper trail to make sure you didn't get that money from Al Qaeda so as to try blowing up the Pentagon again.This revelation is going to affect my plans for flying to Miami next week, because although I have all my money ($250,000)prepared in my Chinese bank account, I'm unable to send it to my US bank account personally. Here in China they have a crazy law that one person may only convert US$50,000 worth of Chinese RMB into US$ per year. My only way around this impediment is to have 5 different Chinese workers of mine each send $50,000 (of my money) to my US account.
But since that money will not be sent from myself in China to myself in the US, it seems I will forced to wait the 3 month "seasoning" period before I can buy anything.
I only heard this information last night, and it is thus still heresay. My plan today is to try to call other US banks and see if they are of the same opinion.
dhillon2 wrote:My husband and I are going to invest in property in Miami – We're planning our next US trip in early 2011, as we are still in the process of tying up lose ends and setting up our finances here. The plan is to purchase property outright with cash, build up our credit rating in the US for 1 year, then re-finance the properties after 1 year to borrow more money and leverage.HI DHILLON
If you read my last 2 posts you'll know why I think your timing is perfect. I'd say around April 2011 there should be some clarity on this whole foreclosure mess, and hopefully there'll be tons of new properties hitting the market, at prices even lower than today's.
I also like your plan of buying with cash, then re-financing. I'm currently in two minds as to whether to do the same for my first purchase, or whether to get a mortgage.
The advantage of the former is that you will be able to get a better deal, and you won't be at the mercy of a lender.
The advantage of the latter is you'll be setting up credit history from the get go. The disadvantage of the latter, though, is that you'll need to buy an expensive home/condo, because the lenders I'm talking to all want you to make a large purchase. And as any property investor with experience knows, expensive properties have low rental returns.
Despite the foreclosure moratorium I'm still flying to Miami in 9 days time, at the very least to set up bank accounts and LLC, and to see what the situation "on the ground" looks like. I'll also be able to meet with some lenders. It's sure to be an education, although I'm no longer 100% certain I'll be buying on this trip.
So what does this Foreclosure Fiasco mean for property prices in Miami?
That's the million dollar question. I've posted this question on the Trulia.com forum, and a number of Miami agents have answered it.
Here's a summary of their answers:
1. there are currently very few foreclosed (REO) homes on the market at present. All the big banks have taken them off "temporarily" while they "review the related documents to make sure there aren't any irregularities".
2. buyers are curently having to purchase Short Sales, or by-the-owner sales, both of which sell at prices much closer to the market value (Realtytrac claims it's stats show that REO's usually sell for more than 30% below market value). Therefore, according to most agents, prices will rise in the short term.
3. prices will decrease further in the longer term because:
A. there will suddenly be a glut of foreclosed homes when all the "paperwork" has been cleaned up and banks release several months' backlog of homes all at once (some agents are saying this will happen in the 1st quarter of 2011)
B. many buyers of foreclosed homes will be scared away from the market altogether, due to the fear of buying a home that later goes into litigation
A number of articles have appeared on Bloomberg and Reuters stating that the Foreclosure Fiasco is definitely going to hurt prices "next year". Even Obama is scared, and he is promising to speed the review process up so as to get business back to normal ASAP, for fear that this new scandal pushes the US back into recession.
Last week, US bank stocks all took a beating. For example, Bank of America stocks lost 9%, showing just how seriously investors are taking this new crisis.
Hi, hope your all having/have had a great weekend
I'm exhausted after surfing today. Hainan is getting the weirdest weather. If you've followed my previous posts you'll know we suffered the worst floods in 50 years about 2 weeks ago. Now it's HAPPENING AGAIN! Hopefully we won't lose power/internet and get cut off from the outside world like last time. The only upside is the swell is huge, coming in from the northeast like steam trains. I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the earth's weather isn't changing due to global warming.
It was nice to get out of the house today, and away from my computer screen. I've been putting in way too many hours applying for mortgages in Miami, and following (and trying to decipher the consequences of) the Foreclosure Fiasco (otherwise known as the Foreclosure Moratorium).
If you haven't been following the Foreclosure Fiasco, it is simply that all the big banks have been caught rushing through the paperwork on foreclosures for the past few years, in a process now referred to as robo-signing.
Actually, when I first started looking into the US market about 3 months ago I was already reading random reports of lawyers claiming that some or other bank had no right to kick some or other homeowner out of his house because actually THE BANK TRYING TO KICK THEM OUT DIDN'T EVEN OWN THE MORTGAGE, even though that was the bank that the homeowner applied for his mortgage through.
What happened at the height of the bubble in 2004/2005 was this: banks lent so much money to buyers at such a high speed that they would have had no more money to lend out if they didn't come up with a plan. And that plan came knocking on their doors in the form of Wall Street, which promised to buy their mortgages off them. Wall Street then sliced the mortgages up into little slivers and glued these slivers together (called re-packaging) and sold these toxic securities to unsuspecting investors (including the government of Iceland, which is why that country went bankrupt in 2008). The banks then took the money they got from Wall Street and lent it to new homebuyers, and then sold these new mortgages on Wall Street etc. etc.
5 years down the road, the result is that the bank who gave Mr X his mortgage isn't actually the owner of that mortgage anymore. The problem is, the bank doesn't even know who now owns the mortgage, since little slivers of Mr X's mortgage were sold to different people/institutions/governments. The banks have been "banking" on the fact that all the Mr Xs don't realise this fact, and have been kicking all the Mr Xs out of their homes by faking signatures of the people who supposedly own the mortgages.
Unfortunately for the banks, some savvy lawyers started seeing through the trick a while back, and have been successfully suing banks for fraud on behalf of their clients (the homeowners who haven't been paying their mortgages). This has been happening for months in a happy equilibrium, because the homeowners tend to win the case and keep their homes because the banks just want to settle quickly and quietly, happy to just pay off one Mr X so long as the other million Mr X's don't cotton on to the fraud being committed by the banks.
But inevitably, the problem started to snowball about a month ago, as the stories being told by these savvy lenders started being covered more and more by the media. Now the problem has got so big that all the big banks have stopped foreclosing on homes, and have stopped trying to sell homes that have already gone through the foreclosure courts. The banks are too scared to sell these homes for fear of being sued by all the Mr X's who're now watching CNN and phoning their lawyers to see if there isn't a quick buck to be made by suing the bank that foreclosed on them.
I must post this now because my 2 year old son needs attention.
Hi James
About your spreadsheet project, are you able to convert it to an image (eg. a jpg or bmp file)? If so, you can upload it onto any of your posts on this website by using the Insert/Edit Image (the tree) you see on the header when you're writing a new post.
If not, you may be able to google-search for a free site that allows you to upload spreadsheets for general viewing, and then provide a link to it.
Thanks for your kind words, but I'm not always a "genuinely nice" person. I always try to be fair and honest, but when I want something (in business) I always but my own interests first. The reason I'm writing on this forum is because I enjoy sharing information with others so long as it isn't in my interests to withhold information.
I'm the kind of guy whom, if you met me in a Traveler's Hostel on your first day in Madagascar, and I was just leaving after touring the country for a month, would spend hours poring over maps while giving you advice and ideas.
I'm currently working on trying to secure financing (in the form of pre-approval) and will let you know how that turns out.
Ciao
StevenHi all
Last night I paid for my ticket to Miami, departing 27 October, returning to China 26th November.
There's no turning back now. I'm firmly committed to the Miami route whether it be the best option in the US or not, so I was most happy to read the following article on this morning's Bloomberg News:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-08/buying-beats-renting-as-foreclosures-cut-home-prices-in-texas-california.htmlHere's an excerpt:
Buying Beats Renting as Foreclosures Cut Home Prices in Texas, California
Arlington, Texas, topped the list of the cities in which buying was a better value than renting, followed by Fresno, California; Miami; Mesa, Arizona; and Phoenix. Trulia compared the average rent on two-bedroom apartments and other rentals in its database with total homeownership costs, including mortgage payments, taxes and insurance, in the 50 largest U.S. cities.
Although Miami comes in third on that list of the 50 largest cities, only Miami and Phoenix are state capitals, Miami is definitely the largest and most famous, and only Miami has a thriving national and international tourist industry.Note the absence of other large cities, or those cities with notably low property prices (eg. Detroit, Atlanta).
Here's another quote from the same article:
Florida, Arizona and California had the highest U.S. foreclosure rates after Nevada in August. One in every 155 Florida houses received a foreclosure notice, 2 1/2 times the national average, according to RealtyTrac. In Arizona, one in 165 homes got a filing, and in California one in 194 did.
And if you want to know which cities have the most unaffordable house-prices, read on:
New York topped Trulia’s list of cities in which renting was more affordable than buying. It was followed by Seattle; Fort Worth, Texas; Omaha, Nebraska; and Sacramento, California.
I was not surprised to find New York topping that list, but was surprised that the state capital of California is in the top 5 most unaffordable cities, especially considering the high rate of foreclosures in California.
James2118 wrote:One little warning I found when I was doing some research into investing in USA,
Property Tax is vastly different to what we have as an equivalent in Australia in rates I suppose. Because the property tax is the major supplier for funding for public schools in the area, they are generally alot higher than land rates in Australia. It is slightly complicated as it varies from state to state but for the purpose of this board I tried to find out exactly how Florida works.Overall it seems that property tax is not too bad in Florida, I have not looked into it myself but I have heard that in some states in USA property tax can reach up to 3% of assessed property value, which as you can imagine can be a very significant chunk of your profits.
But I must stress that again it is best to talk to an accountant who knows alot more about this than I do.
TO JAMES
Thanks for bringing up this worrying issue of property taxes. I also find US property taxes to be extortionate, especially considering that here in China there are NO property taxes and NO rates!
But I doubt that property taxes will ultimately affect the upward potential of property prices, simply because everybody is equally subjected to them. It's a bit like HOA fees for condos and townhouses. People don't shun these kinds of properties just because of HOA fees.
One way that property taxes might affect home prices is if one region or city is taxing more highly than others. I found this to be the case in Detroit, and that's why I stopped considering buying property there.
I think one needs to always keep property prices in mind when buying. For example, my instinct tells me to buy older, badly cared for properties that are in nice areas. The lower purchasing price should mean lower property taxes. Then fix up the property, rent it out, and when it eventually sells for a high price the buyer will be the one paying high property taxes.
SissaNoel wrote:Hi Steve,
Have been following your posts with great interest – hope all is well after the flooding. I've been looking closely at investing in the US at the moment, and am also inclined towards Miami at this point.Are you anticipating any form of 'double dip' in real estate prices there, but still consider going in now is worth it anyway?
I've been reading Harry S Dent Jnr's book 'The Great Depression Ahead – How to Prosper in the Debt Crisis of 2010-2012' , which is giving me a deeper understanding of the points you've been making above. He and his team believe the US is in the 'eye of the storm' and will go through another dip within the next few years (although notes Florida is a great opportunity).
I'm interested to hear your views on this
Regards and many thanks,
Melissa
(Canberra, Australia)TO MELISSA
Thanks for your post, and your concern. The floods have receded, and the tropical skies of Hainan are blue again. Although the floods brought much personal tragedy to people living in houses (as opposed to highrises) I was lucky to escape with only a flooded car engine.
I wish I could get my hands on the book you mentioned, but alas there aren't any English bookstores in Hainan.
I'm following the US economic news closely (my favorite website is http://www.bloomberg.com) and don't see any silver linings in the storm cloud hanging over Florida. Unemployment seems to be worsening, and this whole fiasco with banks forging papers to speed up foreclosure filings is very worrying. I think I'll make a separate post about this issue below.
Therefore, it is very important that one maintains an open-mind, and doesn't act on emotion but on instinct. Many investors like to believe that the Trend is your Friend, and although I have always been the kind of person who hates following the pack, joining the herd can certainly make people rich.
But we, as overseas investors, don't have the luxury to wait for the US herd to break free from the swamp into greener pastures. Metaphors aside, if US property prices were already beginning to rise and you went over to start buying, you'll be too late to make serious money. I say this because we need to have earned US credit history by the time prices start going up.
The only way to make big money in property is by leveraging. If you can't leverage, don't buy property. Go for stocks instead.
gibbo1 wrote:Hi all, I'm another thinking of taking the plunge with the US market. I have been thinking of traveling to the states for awhile. Now with the USD and my thoughts of purchasing property there, now may be the best time to do it. I will follow this thread closely. Sounds like there are quite a few Aussies out there with some good contacts.TO GIBBO
I'm not an Aussie, but sure wish I was one, since your currency and economy are powering along.
I'm using Chinese RMB to buy property, which is an undervalued currency (by about 40%), and is linked to the US$. So when the dollar goes down, our already undervalued RMB goes down as well. Very annoying.
If I were to leave all my RMB in China, I'll definitely earn at least 40% return over the coming 10 years as the currency rises. However, I believe that 40% return isn't anything like what I could get in the US property market.
Here's an example of what US$100K would do if left in China invested in the already very expensive property market:
$100K buys $300K of property (33% downpayment), which might increase 20% over the next 5 years = $360K
Your monthly mortgage payments will be $1,300 but you'll only get $570 in rent, so you'll lose $730 every month
Which is a total loss of $44,000 over 5 years
If you sell for $360K, then pay back the $200K you borrowed, minus the $44K you lost, you're left with $116K
That's only a 16% return.
But if the RMB increases 20% (which is probably the maximum the government will allow) you'll have $139K
Ie. a total return of 39% in 5 years (not bad, but not stellar)The same $100K invested in the US for 5 years would also buy you $300K of property (33% downpayment)
Which I believe will at least double in price in 5 years (I believe US property prices will more more than double in the next 10years, but anyone who buys discounted REO houses can definitely see a doubling of price in just 5 years)
So the $300K will increase to $600K
Your rental return will pay your mortgage, HEO fees and property taxes, and you might even have a bit of profit left over.
If you sell for $600K, then pay back the $200K you borrowed, you're left with $400K
That's a 400% return on your investment.I KNOW ANYONE READING THIS IS THINKING THE ABOVE IS ALL JUST HYPOTHETICAL
And it may well be.
Anything could happen. Al-Qaeda might take over Washington DC and impose Sharia Law. The Chinese might invade and install a puppet communist government and outlaw private property ownership. Global warming might cause sea levels to rise so high that Florida disappears.But I'm banking on the status quo, that America pulls itself together and returns to the path that made it the richest country on the planet for the past century.
Also, I'd like to mention that the profit predictions I calculated above are exactly the same I made here in China 6 years ago when I saw my Shanghai apartment price begin to rise.
Unlike all my neighbours, who suddenly felt much richer and started taking more overseas vacations, I sold my apartment (just 8 months after buying it) and bought 2 more, and so on and so on and so on…
TO COSTA
I also looked extensively into the Tampa market, for 2 reasons: firstly because Tampa statistics are included in the Case-Shiller top 20 cities monthly reports, and secondly because I lived in Tampa back in 1988 as an 18 year old undergraduate student of the University of South Florida.
Tampa is certainly a viable option. It's difficult to say exactly why my roving eye moved on from there, and finally settled on Miami (basically, I spent about a week researching Detroit on Trulia.com, then got worried about the future of that city, and spent the following week looking at Tampa, but then finally decided on Miami).
I think the reason for settling on Miami was because that city is more famous, is the state capital, has more tourism potential, and also because it has more natural beauty than Tampa.
Tampa, however, has cheaper property, similarly high foreclosure rates, and as you mentioned, less crime.
Let me know what areas you're looking at, and I'll tell you if I ever visited there (I used to live in Temple Terrace, which is a very beautiful suburb, but foreclosures might be hard to find there).
reinvestor wrote:Hey all check this out:This might help out your decision about Miami.
Cheers
TO REINVESTOR
Thanks for your post, and for the warning. The article was very interesting, pointing out that more than 57% of all households in Miami are spending more than 30% of monthly income on servicing their mortgages. The warning is that a large percentage of these households will go into foreclosure as a result of having to spend too much of their income paying off their mortgages.
Although the article was written recently, it covers 2009 data, and therefore explains clearly why so many foreclosed properties hit the market this year, and will continue to do so.
However, I see such information not so much as a warning than as an invitation to buy.
If Miami were not suffering so many foreclosures, and if the economy was in a much healthier shape (as it is in Texas and Kansas) then I woudn't be considering going there. I'm not even considering Los Angeles (despite high foreclosure rates) simply because the property prices there are already creeping up.
I want to choose a city that is in very dire straits, and will continue to be for at least another year, since that's how long it'll take me to get my portfolio going.
Also, my tactic is not to choose a city that's doing well, or already in recovery. More important (I believe) is to find a city that was booming before, and is out for the count now. If it boomed before, it should do so again.
Here is an interesting graph showing Miami's unemployment rate for the past 20 years:
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/florida/miami/You can see that before the recession, Miami's unemployment was 3%, a lot below the current 12.8%!
Compare this graph to that of Detroit's:
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/michigan/detroit/Detroit's unemployment before the Global F. C. was about 8%.
I'm currently trying my luck to get pre-approved for an HSBC loan before going to Miami at the end of this month.
I'll be posting the result of this application, whether positive or negative, on this forum.
Best of luck to other investors interested in the US
SteveTO DICK YORK (AND JAMES AGAIN)
Nice to hear that both of you are as interested in Miami as I am.
Dick, I will be sending you an e-mail.
James, feel free to e-mail me (via this site) once I've got further down the Miami road. I'm not looking to profit in any way from other investors, and therefore my findings will be your knowledge. I will happily share all information I gain re. bank accounts, LLC's, estate agents, accountants, taxes, and most importantly, what I perceive the market mood to be like when I'm there.
I should add that I'm not going over to throw all my eggs into one basket, but instead to sniff around and get my foot in the door.
Let me re-iterate my Miami plan:
I will fly around the end of this month
I will be in Miami for about a month (on this first trip)
I will open the necessary accounts, LLC etc.
I will purchase at least one property
I will do my utmost to find current lending, or future lendingIf I find the market to be very favorable (eg. it's possible to get REO's at much lower than the market price) or if I judge that the market is finally bottoming, I shall buy an expensive single-family home or condo (on the water).
If I fail to find great deals, or I think the market is still falling, I will just buy a cheap condo (ie. no water views) or single-family home, and I will use this property as my base for future forays.I intend to live in Miami for several months of next year, so am happy to have a house/condo that is for personal use (ie. when I purchase it I won't necessarily be considering it's rental returns).
TO MICHELLE
Nice to hear from someone "on the ground", especially someone in the real estate industry.
I find it most interesting to hear that, in your experience, up to 50% of sales in the better Miami areas are to foreigners. It serves to remind us, when trying to predict the future of Miami's property market, that a short Atlantic flight away are hundreds of millions of Europeans stuck with awful Christmas weather, just when Miami enjoys its best weather: mild sunny winters.
But Miami doesn't need to rely on Europeans and Canadians to drive it's property market. Once the US economy recovers, all those unfortunate Americans stuck in freezing northern climes will once again also be looking to buy southern coastal holiday homes.
That's looking at the top-end of the market only. Millions of Americans will continue their immigration to the sunbelt to escape harsh northern weather, and they'll all need to either rent or buy.
Quite a few people posted above, so I'll address them in order of their postings.
TO JAMES
Thanks for raising some important points, namely that the unemployment situation is awful in Florida, Miami included. Your comments have prompted me to look into the matter further. It seems you are correct in stating that the unemployment situation is worsening. The following graph shows as much:
http://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/market-intelligence/labor-statistics-trends/Miami-Florida-unemployment.aspxI know of no infrastructure or other government projects to stimulate job-growth.
I can only guess that the reason unemployment is so high is because the Florida economy is so dependent on the property market. According to Wikipedia, the population of the Miami metro area increased about 30% from 1990 to 2009, and I bet a lot of those people were either attracted to the area by construction jobs, or ended up working in the housing industry. Now that the bottom has fallen out of the property market, all those people are out of work.
But a recession is always a temporary phenomenon (in strongly capitalist countries), where periods of economic euphoria, overinvestment and quick gains are interrupted by severe doldrums. During the downtowns, there is underinvestment, and thus an increase in pent-up demand. I'm banking on Miami being catapulted out of the recession when the US economic situation finally turns, and all those people who haven't being buying houses for the past 4 years (not to mention all those who've been kicked out of their houses) suddenly rediscovering their interest in property.
Hi everyone who's been reading/posting in the last week, and I apologise for my disappearance from my own thread.
The reason is that I live on Hainan Island (it's a large circular tropical island, about 250kms in diameter, off the southern coast of China) and 10 days ago we were hit by the most unbelievable flooding. Torrential rain has poured down continuously since then, and most cities (including the one where I live) were metres underwater for a few days. Not surprisingly, we lost electricity supply and phone connections, and therefore ADSL.
The flooding receded 3 days ago, and as soon as I got my internet connection back I dived back into my Miami trip preparations.
ATTEMPT AT OPENING A US BANK ACCOUNT
Yesterday I sent off (by courier) my application for a US-based HSBC account. I've been dealing with the Buffalo, New York HSBC, and they kindly offered to assist me in opening an account without requiring me to visit an HSBC branch here in China (I explained to them how difficult that would be for me, since there aren't any HSBC's within 500kms of where I live). I'm told that the account will be opened within 3 days of them receiving my application, assuming everything is in order. I'll let you all know how this turns out. I hope to have the account opened within 10 days, and then I can start wiring $ into it. This will take a few days since China has restrictive foreign currency laws, and I'm still not sure how I will circumvent them.There were two interesting articles on Bloomberg News Channel today. The first was about foreclosures in the US. I quote:
Homes in the foreclosure process sold at an average 26 percent discount in the second quarter as almost one-fourth of all U.S. transactions involved properties in some stage of mortgage distress, according to RealtyTrac Inc.
“We’re still clearly building up more distressed inventory,” Rick Sharga, RealtyTrac’s senior vice president, said in a telephone interview. “That will either put downward pressure on prices or keep them from going up.”
Bank-owned properties sold for an average discount of almost 35 percent in the second quarter.
Short Sales sold for an average discount of almost 13 percent. Short sales are when lenders accept less than the outstanding loan amount for the property.
From the above except it appears that it's better to buy properties from the bank (ie. REO's) than to buy them before the bank reposseses them (ie. Shorts).
The second interesting article was about opening a premier account with HSBC. Again I quote:
“HSBC lets premier customers open accounts at HSBC branches around the world and transfer their credit history when arriving in a new country to make them immediately eligible for loans or mortgages. Customers also receive better currency exchange rates. They are not charged fees for the services as long as they maintain the minimum balance of $100,000.
I'm currently working on setting up a Premier account with HSBC. You have to maintain an average monthly balance of $100,000. If your savings dip below that level then you are charged $50 per month to maintain the account. My plan is to use the premier account long enough to transfer funds to the US, and also to see if it will assist me in applying for a mortgage in Miami. Once I've bought property and my account no longer has over $100K then I'll close the account.
If you've been working in China (on a Z visa) for more than a year, you will definitely be given a mortgage (all the big banks will welcome you), but you must pay a 30% deposit, ie. the bank will lend you 70% of the total house price. Interest rates will be the same as for locals: about 6%.
I think I should add some other lessons I gleaned from losing two-thirds of my savings back in 2000.
It made me a very careful investor, probably an over-careful one. I became sceptical about everything I read, and even grew to overly question my own thoughts as to which way markets would head. Had I not taken that fall in 2000 I would probably have dived into Chinese property at an earlier time and in an even bigger way than I did, and would have made greater returns.
However, this is using hindsight. Nobody knew how things were going to turn out, and the advantage of caution is that you'll at least end up comfortably cautious, as opposed to either broke or rolling in money, neither of which is ideal. I've now come to the realisation that having too much money or too little to do will not necessarily lead to happiness, hence my current interest in finding something new to stimulate my mind (ie. the US property market).
Over the years I've also learnt the value of diversification. My mistake of 2000 was putting all my eggs in one basket.
If you're reading this and have a sceptical mind like myself, you've no doubt asked yourself as to the wisdom of investing in US property when the future remains clouded. After investing in the post-Nasdaq pop I learnt that not everything recovers. So how do we know that US property now is not analogous to the Nasdaq in 2001? Perhaps US property just went through a huge bubble and has now returned to the level it always should have been at?
These are questions I was asking myself 2 months ago, and did a fair bit of economic research into. There are some very interesting debates online (involving some of the world's most famous economists), and there are two camps in the debate:
1. those that say that property prices should rise only as fast as inflation, which in the US has averaged 3% for the past few decades (if you fall into this camp, then according to the Case-Shiller studies going back to 1900 property in the US is still about 30% higher than it ought to be, and property in Australia would be much much much too high!!!!!!)
2. those that view property as a luxury item more than a basic commodity (like clothing and food). If you fall into this camp, then you belong with the economists that believe property prices should follow people's increases in income, which have averaged about 1.5% higher than inflation in the US over the past few decades. If you take the average property price in the US in 1950 and run it through a compound inflation program of 4.5% for 60 years you will find that current US prices are way too low.
Living in China, as I do, I believe that just simplifying the argument into the above two camps ignores some other fundamental issues.
1. Land is an ever decreasing finite resource (which puts further upward pressure on property values)
2. There are huge cultural issues at play. For the past 300 years in Europe people could emigrate to the colonies where there was limitless land. In the past 200 years in the US, people just headed westwards when they felt squashed. This ability to up and leave has bled into Western culture whereby people feel that everyone can easily own an affordable home/ranch. In China, however, people have understood the value of property for hundreds of years. The excess Chinese population did not mass emigrate to Aus, NZ, South Africa, US, Canada, Brazil, Argentina like the Europeans did. Instead, they stayed put (as did the huge population in India), and made do with the limited space available (which they came to value very highly).
This, I believe, is one reason that Canada and Australia are seeing property prices heading ever higher: they are under the Asian influence.
Longer term, I feel that the entire world is going to re-think it's attitude towards property, due to the up and coming middle classes of China and India. Right now only segments of the world are viewing property through the Asian lens, but sooner or later everywhere will see the light, meaning the US, South America, Africa, and those overly socialist European countries will also have to board the global property train.
Hi James
The most important step towards reaching financial independence is to make the decision to do it. You're only 23. You'll definitely get there.
I only realised the importance of making money when I was 26, having discovered that a science degree isn't worth the paper it's written on. I bought a ticket to the booming Far East to make some money. I then made what seemed like a lot of money to me at the time selling art in Taiwan, and by the age of 29 I stopped working with the intention of just trading my own money on stock markets online. You must realise that this was late 1999, and stock markets had been going up for a decade or so and the papers were full stories of people who got rich quick in the internet bubble. People were also warning of an imminent Nasdaq crash. So I set up my trading accounts and just kept cash, waiting for the big crash.
Sure enough it came in about April 2000 if I remember correctly. I had $50,000 in cash, and I was convinced that if I bought internet stocks once they'd crashed to a third of their value, then I'd make a killing during the recovery. Boy was a wrong.
Not only was there no recovery (and even 10 years later the Nasdaq is at the same level that it crashed to back in 2000), but the stocks I bought (which weren't big famous companies like Microsoft) just kept heading ever and ever lower. The reason I chose smaller companies was because they had crashed the most. This makes me worry about investing in places like Detroit as opposed to Miami (ie. Detroit reminds me of small internet companies whose stock prices just kept heading lower). In real estate, it's location, location, location.
To summarize, by the end of 2000 my stock portfolio was worth a third of what it had been. It pained me too much to sell any stocks at such an awful loss, so in effect I had no money.
Luckily I got a big break at this time (or in retrospect that's what it turned out to be): for my 31st birthday my sister bought me a book she'd picked up on a recent trip to Hong Kong. It was about the impending China boom. It was written by two very respectable New York Times journalists. I ate up the info, and immediately made plans to move to China. Luckily I'd learnt a bit of Mandarin while living in Taiwan, so the Chinese market, culture and language weren't totally alien to me.
I'll skip to the end: the property market in Shanghai did a remarkable surge between about 2002 and 2010. In a market like that, all you need to do is make sure you're positioned well for the takeoff. Even a fool can't lose money if you just make sure you're in the game.
This is what I currently think is going to happen in the US. I don't know when it'll start, and I know prices won't go up as much as they did in China, but they'll go up at a fast enough pace to turn any prudent investor starting with just small capital but big dreams (and most importantly, a credit record in the US) into millionaires.
What did I learn from my post-Nasdaq Crash disaster: don't get in too early, and don't jump in for all you're worth. The US property market has been going down for 4 years now. It's surely time to start getting our feet wet.