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  • Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Dan42 wrote:
    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    In this case the Tax Man can.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    I have a situation that demonstrates how this system can be overly restrictive.  If things start getting hairy here and the banks start looking a bit dodgy – which is remote I know, but not infeasible and I’d be happy to argue the point, but moving on – I could consider paying off some of my loans.  

    Why would I do this? Because as it stands I have cash and loans. 
     The problem is that if my bank can’t pay back all my deposits and go bust it’s not simply a case of I owe the net, it’ll be a case of I still owe all of my loans to whomever bought them from the liquidator and hope for the best in terms of getting my cash back.  (As a side-bar this is a classic example of why the Australian Government is not debt free, much like me they are debt neutral, i.e. the balance of their creditors equals what they are owed. Problem is they are owed money by the likes of the Solomon Islands and Fiji).

    One way of protecting myself is to pay off my mortgages with my cash deposits, leaving only a small debt to the bank. The problem is that I can’t reverse that transaction. If I take out my cash at a later stage I can’t claim a deduction on the interest on the amount I redrew. Perhaps I could if the money I took back out was used for investment purposes, but it would get messy as some of it is used as private funds and some of it is just in interest bearing cash accounts.

    In fact this is the case even if you pay it off and then redraw it a day later (according to the ATO).
      
    So, if things do go "Grapes of Wrath" I have to make the choice between reducing my risk totally, but paying the price of not being able to claim substantial deductions in the future, or taking a higher risk by keeping the cash.  On Steve’s web seminar he advises that cash be spread about in this situation, which is an option, but it has its flaws; on the up-side you lower your risk of losing the lot by placing it in multiple institutions, but you also increase the risk of losing some by the virtue of having the money in more than one bank.

    Anyway, it’s a bit moot at the moment, but who knows, and it’s better to consider these things when you have time to rather than be forced to make rash decisions in a hurry.

    I’d welcome any comments/advice about how I could redraw the money in the future and not disadvantage myself.
    .

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    CHIS wrote:
    Personal insults on a general forum are for the childish and intellectually challenged.

    Mmmmm? 

    I’d take a pill, relax and give as good as you get.  It’s all part of the fun of the forum. Which brings me to my next point…

    ohricey wrote:
    Hi all,
    Total newbie to this and would appreciate any advice

       Then

    CHIS wrote:
    This is a forum for general discussion. I don't expect anybody to take my advice

    Huh?

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    CHIS wrote:

    I wish I was smarter

    Perhaps those that take your advice might also end up wishing this was so!

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    CHIS wrote:
    It's the time of champions
    This is the market to make money

    Scamp wrote:
    Stay out of the property market at all costs. Getting in now will ruin you for life. End of story.

    There is no right or wrong time to invest because the right time can only be based upon your own specific circumstances. 

    At the moment no one can predict with any certainty what will happen, therefore to speculate is to gamble and as they say, only gamble with what you can afford to lose i.e. consider a worst case scenarios or ask yourself if you can live with it.  

    What happens if you have a sustained period of vacancy?

    What happens interest rates go back up (stagflation is a possibility)?

    What happens if you lose your job?

    At the moment these are all very real prospects, so you need to at least consider a contingency or what you might lose if you end up having to sell quickly.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Badgers_R_Us wrote:

    I think that the current property boom will end with some potentially catastrophic results. Many Australian investors are geared up to the hilt (particularly the mums and dads players with the one property, representing a high proportion of investors) and the clouds are gathering for these and many thousands of home owners with large amounts of debt.

     

    Much of the individual wealth created today is on the back of asset booms. Unprecedented consumer spending (and debt) has been driven by borrowings against equity in property. As we move into a relatively precarious situation with a US recession looming we are going to see consumer spending drop leading to a drop in demand for product. The likelihood of a US recession impacting on the rest of the world is very strong, particularly in Australia where lower global consumer demand for goods will result in a slowdown in the Chinese and Indian economies (although interestingly Japan is out biggest trading partner) impacting on our resource-driven economic boom.

     

    How will this affect us? A slowdown in the economy, coupled with an increase in the cost of borrowing, will result in fewer jobs, higher interest rates and a rise in defaults (this includes business bankruptcies since business borrowing is at an all-time high also). With the glut of property and a potentially sustained period of recession it’s unlikely that the market will recover for some years.

     

    So what to do? I have a problem with the notion that the market will keep on rising as required by most property investment strategies. They say time is the essence, and so long as you can afford to stick it out for at least 7 – 10 years (the usual property cycle) you’ll be fine. This has 2 pitfalls: 1) it assumes that you can afford to see the cycle through and 2) a cycle is going to be like any other cycle.

     

    The only thing that is hard to predict is how bad the recession will be. If it’s only a mild cold we all catch from the US, then you may be able to ride it out. If we catch pneumonia then the smart money will sell up now in a market that is still reaping silly prices, sit on your cash and buy when there are a ton of houses up for mortgagee sales in about 2-3 years time.

     

    I know this is very pessimistic but there are predictions of a “perfect storm” on the horizon. Whilst a recession is very hard to predict I would not be betting on a winning horse if the vet is telling me his heart could go at any time.

     

    But I could be wrong! 

    But I was not!

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Interesting.  Basically the banks response is (certainly at the level I spoke) they can't answer that question because they do not know, and (in a round about way) implied that I was wasting their time even asking because it was such a remote prospect.

    Of course it's still not a satisfactory answer.  I do wonder if it's something they would refuse to speculate on because they don't like such questions.

    Anyway, if it l goes down the gurgler and I lose out the guy who advised me will be the first in line for a visit from me!

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Cat159 wrote:
    Which means although there is no guarantees you'll get your money back – you'll be first in line to receive funds back.

    I'm trying to avoid the chances of having to be in the queue in the fist place, so the exam question for the bank is; if you lose my money will that loss be offset against what I owe?  If the answer is no, then it might be safer for me to just payout my mortgages if things get stormy.  This leaves me with less liquidity, but it's one way of negating the problem short -term.

    This of course would raise another question, which is if I pay off my IP loans until things look better, would I be able to then remortgage at a later date and get my cash back out? The potential problem here is that there is the posiblity  I could no longer negatively gear the redraw since the purpose of the money is not solely for investments. Whilst I would actually put myself back in the same situation I am now in, from a tax perspective things technically may have changed.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Tony B wrote:

    I am aware that the Government provides guarantees but it’s only up to $20k per person max. 

    Badgers

    I'm interested in this also, who told you that the Aust. government guarantees bank funds and the 20k only interest me also. Currently I feel Im not the only one concered about our money in the bank. Lets know your source for this info. if its possible.

    Kind regards

    T…….  

    I did a bit of research and I think I was mistaken and in fact  the $20k guarantee was only proposed. Currently there is no underwriting of deposits by the Government.  Since I made this post, I have asked the bank directly the position and am awaiting their response which  I'll post it when it comes back.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Badgers_R_Us wrote:
    jthomo wrote:
    How many IP do you own badger???
    honest answer only though….

    Why?  Would it be your assertion that the merit of my contribution is directly linked to the number of IP's I have?  My brother knows a great deal about tennis rackets,  but I think he's only got one at the moment.

    Or perhaps you would just like to compare the size of yours with the size of mine.

    What's your point?

    JT Homo, cat got your tongue?

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    TheYoungInvestor wrote:
    Yes i know i will be paying 21% interest but on a 30,000$ amount if i took all of the 30k out with 21% how much repayment would i be doing per month on the 30k only.

    YoungInvestor, I'd suggest you learn some basic maths before you even think about dabbling in investing. Without even the basic tools you're heading for disaster.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    jthomo wrote:
    How many IP do you own badger???
    honest answer only though….

    Why?  Would it be your assertion that the merit of my contribution is directly linked to the number of IP's I have?  My brother knows a great deal about tennis rackets,  but I think he's only got one at the moment.

    Or perhaps you would just like to compare the size of yours with the size of mine.

    What's your point?

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Re your link to:

    Sure it's a bargain, that's because it's going to be underwater in 20 years time! 

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    PaulDobson wrote:

    Hi Badger

    Gosh, I'm going to have to slap myself on the wrist again ;-)  Why, well I paid $10,000 for a full year of mentoring and, at the first get together, learned a technique that no one in the group had ever heard of before.  So I went straight out and used the technique and earned myself $36,000 on that transaction.  And I still haven't seen it written about in any book (and I've read most of the list at the back of API).

    Let's just hope the $26k you made covered the cost of all the other courses and seminars you did ; -)

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    PaulDobson wrote:
    Hi All Gosh I must remember, in my next life, to never attend a seminar because, before I attended, I had my PPOR and now I control over $xx mil in property. All done with various seminars and a couple of books from Robert Kiyosaki and John Burley. Sorry, no university and utilised one of the seminar presenters as an on-going mentor (and paid heaps for the privilege). Thanks for showing me the terrible mistakes I've made ;-) Cheers, Paul

    Three are two points here, the first, as made by Opportunity, is the hard-to-dispute fact that there are dodgy seminars and there are mugs who get sucked in. The second point is that sure, there are seminars that can offer good advice and motivation from bona fide professionals, but that does not mean one is not a mug for paying five grand for something that could have been gleaned from a book. It's like paying Jamie Oliver a days wage to teach you how to cook an omelette!

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    APerry wrote:
    I personally know a number of very successful property investors who got their initial inspiration from going to seminars. How are these people mugs?

    It does not necessarily follow that just because they are successful that they were not mugs for going in the first place. Although  I doubt they'd admit it because no one likes to fess-up to being had.  Anyway, there will always be exceptions to such generalisations. 

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    vockie wrote:
    I doubt you have the right to decide for them.

    That raises an interesting point – should idiots be allowed to be idiots or should they be legislated against because they are a danger to themselves (and perhaps others)? From an investment standpoint I think the need to dictate has been proven by the very fact that we are witnessing tightening of lending practices because idiots should not be left to their own devices (lenders and borrowers). But should we help them?

    More broadly, I think many of us suffer fools, which adds a huge impost to our tax burden. Take for example something as simple as the green and red walk / don’t walk for pedestrian crossings. I don't need an effing green man to tell me when it's safe to cross. Why? Because I'm not an idiot! I do not need a warning sign to tell me not to lean out of the train window, I do not need a “No Diving” sign telling me not to do a swan-dive in the local duck pond! I bet there are thousands of examples of this nonsense (Note to self as future PM – tax the idiots).

    I think this kind of nannying legislation has interfered with some of the basic principles of evolution and the gene pool is not being rid of idiots (I'm thinking of the Darwin Awards: http://www.darwinawards.com). So, perhaps you are right, we should not be allowed to decide for them. Let them spend $4,500 on a over-priced seminar, because these are the mugs that will end up being fleeced and/or coming unstuck with crappy investment strategies and the investment gene pool will be rid of them. Hurrah!

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    Any negative statements about a specific agent or agency would only be libellous if they could be proven to be false.   Of course truth does not necessarily play any part in proviing libel and often those with the deepest pockets win, so even if your statement is true the question is; can you afford to defend yourself if required? 

    That's the problem with the legal system, it's catch-22; you need to make it so that ambit claims are minimised (which has largely been accomplished by making the system prohibitively expensive), but by doing so you make justice unaffordable.  How many of us have copped a fine only because it's too costly to mount a challenge? But then the counter argument is that the system would grind to halt if it cost tuppence to do so.

    We could play a game of dare here.  I’ll start with a statement and well see who is prepared to better it. The winner is the person who makes the the most outrageous claim (fact or fiction).  Or perhaps people can post a vote on each statement from 1 – 10 of riskiness.  Here's my opener:

    Tom Cruse is a short little man (relative to me).

     

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    It depends, if I knew I couldn't fail to kill myself then I'd probably pass on the opportunity to do so.

    Profile photo of Badgers_R_UsBadgers_R_Us
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    I'm not sure people are complaining so much about cost (I think most reasonable people are prepared to pay a fair price for a fair job), its more that the level of quality and consistency that disappoints.

    I think one reason why people get so many quotes is that they do not trust tradies, so feel the need to "test" the market in order to get a realistic idea of the real cost. 

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