All Topics / Finance / Questioning Broker’s honesty

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  • Profile photo of reido30reido30
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    @reido30
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 5

    Hi all. Will try to keep this as short as possible.

    I have just received a copy of my latest mortgage, the fourth mortgage that I've done through this particular broker.

    He has always been really slack with communication but I've stuck with him as he knows me and my situation so that has made things a little less complicated.

    The issue I am having at the moment comes with a recent construction loan. The land portion of the loan settled a couple of months ago.

    Regarding the total construction costs, I instructed the Broker to keep LVR under 87.99 to limit the amount of LMI payable. He sat down and did the figures and we got the LVR down to 87.03% which went onto the application and was signed by me. In this instance, the LVR was lowered by adding $15,000 to the value of the land that I purchased a few months prior, and the value nominated for the land was quite reasonable.

    The broker then called me 2 weeks later to say that the Valuer had agreed to the land value that I had nominated and that all was good.

    Another week goes by and I receive an SMS from him saying the 'Val had been put through, it is a good val at 89%'.

    I Immediately wrote back and questioned if 89% was the LVR of 87.03% + LMI, to which he replied " I would assume so, I will find out and get back to you".

    A week goes by without hearing a thing and then I receive a message from him saying it had been signed off by the bank and that the Mortgage docs were on there way to me. I again messaged him back asking him did he sort out the LVR issue. He did not reply.

    The mortgage docs arrived and showed LVR at 90.07% which makes for a substantially higher premium. They also show the land value as the purchase price and NOT the purchase value + $15,000 as nominated on the application, this is despite the broker telling me that the Valuer had agreed to it.

    I immediately called the broker thinking that this was a mistake. He then advised me that the Valuer did value it at the higher value, but then lowered it back to the value of the purchase price. This seemed strange to me. He also advised me that the construction portion of the loan was reduced by $5000 as the valuer thinks it could be done cheaper. The construction costs are already very conservative and the home is being built with funds totaling approx 10% less than other comparable sales in the street so once again I question this. 

    I then wrote a letter with supporting data showing recent land and property sales within the area hoping to contest the valuation. He informs me that he will approach the lender with this data and "see what they say". Despite the data supporting my claim, he calls me last night and states that he has spoken to the company that provides the LMI (QBE) and they will not increase the value of the property to reflect it's true market value as the land purchase was recent, and that they will only go off the purchase price. 

    The questions I have are:

    -Do brokers earn any commission/kickback based on LVR? 

    -Are the insurers really able to set their own guidelines for determining property values?

    -How could a property be valued at a certain rate and then devalued a week or so later, despite property sales data supporting the higher value?

    -I've never heard of construction costs being lowered by a valuer. Is this normal?

    -Where do I go from here?

    I cannot understand how an insurer can influence the valuation report as it would obviously be in their interest to keep the value low to increase the LVR and therate of LMI and this seems to be a massive conflict of interest. This is why I have trouble believing the broker.

    Also seems strange that the land value would be based on the  outcome of a successfully negotiated price instead of it's actual market value.

    Can any body provide any insight or advice?

    Thanks so much.

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
    Participant
    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    Hi there

    1. Nope

    2. Valuations are generally provided by third party valuers. It is at the discretion from the LMI provider whether they'll accept the valuation. They won't change the valuation amount but might not be comfortable with comparative sales, risk ratings of certain categories, etc.

    3. I've never had it happen

    4. No – not that usual

    5. Sounds like a big communication issue from the brokers end. He/she needs to keep you better informed. Sounds like the land has already settled and you paid some LMI on it – so there's prob no point refinancing to another lender because you'll be slugged another LMI premium. To me, it sounds like staying with the current lender and copping the additional LMI seems logical – albeit annoying.

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    My answers are the same as Jamie about.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    As above however Yes the insurer can certainly influence both the type of valuation and who does it.

    I have a deal for a forum going thru at the moment where the insurer has requested a 2nd valuation be undertaken as there are a couple of things they are not 100% happy with.

    Lender redid it but did a driveby and insurer now wants it redone to a full valuation.

    Other than that sounds like slight lack of communication.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of reido30reido30
    Member
    @reido30
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 5

    Thanks all.

    It is very unfortunate that an insurer can manipulate a value to influence the premium. Obviously the land has already been purchased so they know I have no option other than to proceed and pay the premium.

    I have just bypassed the broker and called the lender directly and they've told me that the value of the land and the build is done at a 'recovery value' as opposed to market value. When I asked to see in black and white how the formula for the recovery value I was told that it is 'commercially sensitive' information.  Seems they win either way.

    Having said that, they do agree that it should never have been valued at the higher rate and then re-valued at the purchase price, nor should the construction costs have been reduced. They have agreed to look into it.

    In this instance the recovery rate must be around 9% less than market value. I would assume that each lender or Insurer have their own way of calculating value?

    Is there any point in me making a complaint to the financial regulator, ie the ombudsman or would I be wasting my time?

    Thanks again

    Profile photo of wilko1wilko1
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    @wilko1
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 510

    I personally think that you would be wasting your time.

    Often valuers will give a indication of value in a range. So your land could of been valued at ($15000 higher then your purchase price – to your purchase price)

    But considering you only the purchased the land a few months ago. No bank/ lmi provider would have taken the upper limit of the valuers valuation because your land purchase was within 3 months and they still would question a higher value up to a year after purchase if no market trends suggest any price movement or sales price increases. They just wouldn't do that as it risks exposing their insurances to the banks.

    The banks/ Lmi providers also reserve the right to lend on the lower of the purchase price or the valuation. If You land valuation came in lower then your purchase price when you initially bought the property you would have to have put in more money then.

    and yes recovery rate is around 5-10% less market value.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Absolutely no point at all.

    Just focus on the job in hand. Valuations are commissioned by lenders as part of their risk analysis.

    Instructions are given to valuers on what basis to value a security by the lender and for their purposes not yours.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
    Participant
    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    I agree with the others – it's pointless. At this stage I'd just focus on settling the deal.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of reido30reido30
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    @reido30
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 5

    Thank you all again for your input.

    Whilst I wish my broker made me aware of this when setting up the mortgage, I'll take the long view here and cop the hit.

    I've decided to put a bit of my own cash into the build to bring the LMI down to a more bearable figure.

    Thanks again.

    Profile photo of PLCPLC
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    @plc
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 400
    reido30 wrote:
    Thank you all again for your input.

    Whilst I wish my broker made me aware of this when setting up the mortgage, I'll take the long view here and cop the hit.

    I've decided to put a bit of my own cash into the build to bring the LMI down to a more bearable figure.

    Thanks again.

    At least try to get it to under 90% LVR as that's where there is a decent jump in LMI.

    Did you pay LMI on the land portion and capitalise it, and if so did they take that LMI as part of the base amount when working out the LVR for the complete land and construction?

    Also in regards to construction costs, they can come in lower if the valuer thinks that there are some items in there that don't add value to the property.

    Cheers

    Tom

    PLC | Phoenix Loan Consulting
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Melbourne based Mortgage Broker | Making Finance Simple

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    To late now but depending on the numbers you could have gone 80% secured and balance unsecured.

    No LMI on the deal that way.

    We do this with clients a lot especially when lvr is close.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of reido30reido30
    Member
    @reido30
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 5

    Not sure I understand exactly how this works Richard.

    I have not paid any LMI at this stage as I haven't signed the construction contract yet. 

    When I purchased the land I put down a 36% deposit but now that the construction costs are factored into it that 36% has turned into a 9.9%dep.

    I am looking to increase the cost of the build to increase the final value and hopefully the LVR will fall back down to 89%. Is this the way you'd recommend?

    Will more than likely come to you next time I'm building or refinancing as you are local to me.

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