All Topics / Help Needed! / Property investment with another couple turns sour
Hi,
Thought I would post my current experiences investing with another couple. We purchased several properties with another couple through a property trust, several years ago, (this was their idea and we went along with it, as they have had properties longer than us). We also bought 2 houses in our own name along side two houses they own themselves. The idea was to eventually knock the 4 houses down, and subdivide. In the meantime the idea was that we would manage all these properties between the two couples together. My husband and I also spent 7 months renovating the other couple's house that they bought in their own name, with the expectation that we share in the rental income, and pay all outgoing bills. This process of managing the properties together continued for several years, which are approx 1 hours drive from where we both live. However, in these years of managing the properties together we have also had alot of tenant problems (as the houses are in a low socio-economic area). After several years of abusive tenants, weeks/months of no paying rent, squatters, us hiding around streets at night trying to catch tenants, tribunal hearings, I had enough of it all. I could no longer cope with the situation. It was always expected that my husband and I would drop everything we were doing, take time off work, cancel the kids sport committments, or drive up to the properties at night after being at work all day, so we could 'fix' the tenant problems. According to the other couple 'the properties were always more important than anything else we had going in our life'. The wife of the other couple appeared to have an unusual fixation with managing the properties, and being in control of how things were run. It got to the point that I also felt like an unpaid employee, doing her bidding whenever she wanted. I have numerous examples that would make you laugh (me cry).
Anyway, the last few months have been very difficult with tenants, and my stress levels were at an all time high. I have had a bleeding ulcer in the past, and was scared of it returning. I spoke to the wife of the other couple and told her that this was too stressful for our family to continue this pace, and I think getting an agent would help reduce the stress of managing these properties for all concerned. I should have been more honest and highlight to her that it was her that was causing alot of my stress as well, but I didnt have the heart (foolish yes).
This didnt eventuate as she didnt want to pay agent's fees, didn't trust them, said we would still have issues. So it was expected that the situation continue as it was.
At this point I pulled away from managing the properties, and my husband started to act as the go-between, going up to the houses with the other couple for open inspections,etc, but I continued to with the admin stuff on our side, as I did not want to see them anymore, due tothe stressful situation. In the meantime, issues with the properties were escalating (insurance claims, broken windows with tenants fighting,etc), and I kept my distance. The other couple didnt like this situation with me, and we had a 'meeting' to resolve the issue.At this meeting I suggested that we could perhaps sell the properties between ourselves, we were also willing to buy the least favourable properties from them, and they could buy us out of one or two of the better ones. This was the cheapest, easiest way than selling them on the open market, and paying agents' fees, which could take some time. The wife said 'no', and threatened that if she lost money in any transaction, she 'would come after me'. My husband brought up the idea again of getting an agent to manage the properties, and the meeting ended with us all resolving to do this once we got (yes another new tenant into one of the properties, as the tenant that was put in in the last couple of months was abusive to othe tenants).
After this meeting I sent an email to them stating what I thought the next process would in separating the managment of the properties. My email was informative, nice, and offerred suggestions as to how we could go about it. I also asked for the other parties input and thoughts.
I received no reply to this email, and today my husband went to yet another open inspection to find yet another new tenant. This was arranged in the meeting the week before that this would be one of the last things to do before we get an agent. I have since received a couple of quotes from agents, including one good one from one agent. He prices were competitive.
After the inspection was completed, this couple started being verbally abusive to my husband, said they better not see me in the street, I am a snob, etc. Started to bring up things that have occurred in the last few years, and recent months why they wernt happy with me. My husband was also trying to query a couple of unusual bank withdrawal transactions that were in the joint trust account, only to be told "it was none of our business"???? They also were saying that they dont want an agent for any proeprties they manage themselves, which sort of cancels all what the meeting was about the week before. At no point were my husband and I ever abusive or began a personal vendetta against them. My husband came home absolutely gutted and felt that the good outcome from the meeting the previous week was a huge step backwards.
My husband and I just want to part ways as we no longer want to be part of this partnership, and if we were unable to sell our share in the trust, an agent was the next best thing to avoid losing huge some of money trying to sell in this market. Having properties that have bad tenants is always a stressful situation, but try doing it with a couple who loves all the drama, but expects us to do the same?I guess one question I have is, if we forced the issue of selling through the trust, and it goes to court can she take us back to court to reclaim her losses? There was no legal document drawn up in this partnership, except the trust document itself.
Thanks
Several years doen the track my husband's and my experience with
What sort of trust is it?
Who are the appointors if it is a discretionary trust?
You could be in a very good or bad position as if you control the appointor you can control the trustee and therefore the properties. You could then take control and sell the lot and if a discretionary trust you could give yourself all the money (and so could she if she had control).
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Hi TerryW,
The trust is a unit trust, which is owned by each of our respective family trusts. In the unit trust all 4 people are trustees.
Cheers
In that case then you will have more leverage and a safer position. Its unfortunate that you didn't have a company as trustee as if you were to transfer your units to them and get out of the trust altogether you would have to change the trustee and change all the title deeds and reapply for loans etc.
Have a read of the trust deed and see if there are any provisions in there regarding dispute resolutions. I assume you would both control 50% each and so you couldn't outvote each other. You could probably force a sale by going to court if the deed is silent on this. I don't know about her getting costs out of you, probably she would have a hard time with that.
Whatever you do now keep the idea that there may be a dispute in court later and make sure you keep evidence of everything. Maybe try to communicate via email and be careful what you write. Best to try and negotiate your way out without going to court and lawyers etc as it could be very expensive.
What State is the Unit trust governed by? It will be in the deed somewhere. You might want to look at the trustee act for that state.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Thanks TerryW,
Yes my husband and I are trying to resolve this as best as we can, and yes ownership is 50-50. There is a statement in the trust:
Unit holders not liable to indemnify trustee:
"No unit holder shall be under obligation to indemnify the Trustee or any creditor against any liability or obligation incurred by the Trustee in the exercise of its duties, rights and powers under this Trust or arising therefrom or in the course of carrying on any business pursant to these trusts or for any deficiency in the Trust Fund."
Would this statement provide some protection of us if sued or if the other party seeks compensation, who are also unit holders?
Could an option be to buy out units from each other (at market rate)? This would be subject to CGT, stamp duty, etc, I am assuming though.
When you mention have a company as the Trustee, do you mean an external independent party ? Is it too late to get this setup? By having that structure could we opt out sell our share to this company, if the other couple do not want to purchase any more units? Or is it that the company has no investment in the trust but just oversees the running of the Trust?
CheersSorry to hear the sad/stressful situation.
The joys of joint ownership soon sour when you realise that your partners have different attitudes/expectations to yourself.
Is the husband more reasonable or does the wife call the shots there too? It may be worth talking to him in isolation.
It appears on face value that some of the issues come down to tenant selection, others due to remoteness/distance, & unreal expectations that you need to drop everything when the tenant f@rts.
Separation of management to an agent would relieve you of a lot of angst, even if you only moved your properties to the agent it would save on sleepless nights & callouts, you wouldn’t face the abuse of tenants or front the tribunal etc.
Thanks Scott. Your opinions are exactly how I see it too. We just want to move ahead and get on with our lives. We are willing to take some losses if it comes to selling, but the other party doesn't want to. I can see their way, but if my husband and I became bankrupt or separated then we would be faced with this very same situation anyway.
Cheers
rich0082 wrote:Thanks TerryW,Yes my husband and I are trying to resolve this as best as we can, and yes ownership is 50-50. There is a statement in the trust:
Unit holders not liable to indemnify trustee:
"No unit holder shall be under obligation to indemnify the Trustee or any creditor against any liability or obligation incurred by the Trustee in the exercise of its duties, rights and powers under this Trust or arising therefrom or in the course of carrying on any business pursant to these trusts or for any deficiency in the Trust Fund."
Would this statement provide some protection of us if sued or if the other party seeks compensation, who are also unit holders?
Could an option be to buy out units from each other (at market rate)? This would be subject to CGT, stamp duty, etc, I am assuming though.
When you mention have a company as the Trustee, do you mean an external independent party ? Is it too late to get this setup? By having that structure could we opt out sell our share to this company, if the other couple do not want to purchase any more units? Or is it that the company has no investment in the trust but just oversees the running of the Trust?
CheersI don’t think that clause would protect you as trustees if you are sued by the other trustess. I was thinking of another clause regarding resolving disagreements between trustees.
You forgot to tell me what state the trust is set up under as this will effect the above and the duty. I think you may find that there could be duty on the transfer of the units and there would be CGT at market rates too. You would have to check all this with a lawyer.
There are 2 things you need to consider,
1. Transferring the units
2. transferring the ownershipNow the properties are owned by 4 people as trustees. That means all 4 names are on the title deeds to the properties and all loans. If you want to get out of the arrangement then you will need to get off the title deeds and the loans.
There are stamp duty issues on the transfer of the title as well as the units. It could be that the trustee being changed is only a nominal duty of about $50. But this would depend on if the ownership of the units is the same.
If you had a company originally then the ownership wouldn’t change. You would just pass over control of the company to the otherside and then change the units over to them too. I mean a company which you control here too, not an externally controlled one. Its probably not worth doing now as you would need to redo the loans on the change of the company.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
What was the benefit you were trying to achieve in buying the properties in a trust with the other parties? Why didn't you just keep ownership seperate? Seems like keeping ownership separate would of given your much more flexibility and still allowed you to partner with the other couple down the track to develop or sell if you wanted to.
In terms of management of the units, being that there is 4 units why don't you have it setup so 1 couple manages 2 units and the other couple manages 2 units. Then for your 2 units you organise a property manager? You would therefor accept recieving less income for your side of things at the benefit of having less stress/time wasted. Hell even get all 4 units managed and you wear the management costs seems like a more appealing idea.
Receiving less income vs peace of mind/quality of life/less arguments Etc……. I don’t know which I’d choose.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. If you don't have an account, you can register here.